CECAA850 Posted June 30, 2017 Share Posted June 30, 2017 27 minutes ago, Deang said: You'd have to work much harder than that to ruin the sound of the Peach and a set of VRDs. :-) Dean, I asked above and will ask again. Is there such a thing as a steep slope AA? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mark1101 Posted June 30, 2017 Share Posted June 30, 2017 What makes an AA is its shallow slopes and no upper cutoff (bandpass) on the mid. Then you get into what's called a Super AA which cuts off the high end on the mid and steepens the tweeter slope but still has the shallow slopes where the woofer and mid cross. Anything steeper than that and it's getting away from what an AA was designed to do..........significant overlaps of drivers producing a more immediacy, and increased dynamics. As the slopes steepen driver overlap and dynamics are reduced. However, clarity improves at louder volumes. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CECAA850 Posted June 30, 2017 Share Posted June 30, 2017 28 minutes ago, mark1101 said: What makes an AA is its shallow slopes and no upper cutoff (bandpass) on the mid. Then you get into what's called a Super AA which cuts off the high end on the mid and steepens the tweeter slope but still has the shallow slopes where the woofer and mid cross. Anything steeper than that and it's getting away from what an AA was designed to do..........significant overlaps of drivers producing a more immediacy, and increased dynamics. As the slopes steepen driver overlap and dynamics are reduced. However, clarity improves at louder volumes. Thanks for the clarification. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Deang Posted June 30, 2017 Author Share Posted June 30, 2017 2 hours ago, mark1101 said: What makes an AA is ...no upper cutoff (bandpass) on the mid. So what is the rate of roll off without the bandpass? 2 hours ago, mark1101 said: Then you get into what's called a Super AA which ... steepens the tweeter slope ... You sure about that? 2 hours ago, mark1101 said: ... significant overlap of drivers produces more immediacy, and increased dynamics. As the slopes steepen, driver overlap and dynamics are reduced. However, clarity improves at louder volumes. True. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
avguytx Posted June 30, 2017 Share Posted June 30, 2017 I have a pair of AA's that I got with the Belle parts I bought from another member on this forum. Based on all of this, should I just stay with what they are and update the capacitors and let 'em rip? It's not that often I get to lay down on the volume throttle so it's more happy average anymore. Using a new pair of K-33's, K-55-V's, and CT-120's. @Deang and anyone else that cares to reply. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Deang Posted June 30, 2017 Author Share Posted June 30, 2017 You will probably only take one shot at this - why not save up a little bit of money and do it right? You can have your cake and eat it too. Recap with Dayton's for peanuts while you save for better parts. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
haydukej Posted June 30, 2017 Share Posted June 30, 2017 57 minutes ago, Deang said: So what is the rate of roll off without the bandpass? I'm dipping my toes in the deep end here, but I was under the assumption that with the stock mid driver and AA, isn't the roll off produced naturally by the mid driver itself? Hopefully someone else in the crowd had this question too... 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mark1101 Posted June 30, 2017 Share Posted June 30, 2017 50 minutes ago, Deang said: So what is the rate of roll off without the bandpass? Whatever the driver does by itself. It not only rolls off as it dies out..........it can come back (like at around 9K). There is nothing to stop it. You sure about that? Yes.............Just look on AL's site Steeper and smoother. True. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Deang Posted June 30, 2017 Author Share Posted June 30, 2017 Yes, the network relies on the mass rolloff of the driver, in combination with the collapsing verticals of the horn. At 6kHz, the output just falls like a rock. It sure ain't 6dB/octave. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Deang Posted June 30, 2017 Author Share Posted June 30, 2017 The "bounce back" is almost 30dB down. Who cares! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mikebse2a3 Posted June 30, 2017 Share Posted June 30, 2017 2 hours ago, mark1101 said: Anything steeper than that and it's getting away from what an AA was designed to do..........significant overlaps of drivers producing a more immediacy, and increased dynamics. 2 hours ago, mark1101 said: As the slopes steepen driver overlap and dynamics are reduced. However, clarity improves at louder volumes Hey Mark I have to ask by what mechanism or process do you and Dean believe dynamics is increased or reduced by using the different slope crossovers..? I believe if anyone was to take these comments as a truth/rule/or law between different slope rates that would be a mistake. It's not as simple as just changing slope rates when doing a comparison because unless someone is maintaining a target frequency spectrum balance and maintaining a smooth phase response through the crossover region either could be perceived as superior or inferior for a variety of reasons due to possibly poor implementation. miketn Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
avguytx Posted June 30, 2017 Share Posted June 30, 2017 21 minutes ago, Deang said: You will probably only take one shot at this - why not save up a little bit of money and do it right? You can have your cake and eat it too. Recap with Dayton's for peanuts while you save for better parts. Having tinnitus, it's hard for me to hear major differences between capacitors these days. I can't afford to go the Jupiter caps which, I think, would cost me more than I have in all of the parts. If I'm not going high end/boutique, wouldn't Solen, ClarityCap, etc., fit the bill for the most part? I'd even spring for some AB-2's, or build them if they were noticeably better. Roy D had told me about the AB-3's but none were hiding anywhere in Hope. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Deang Posted June 30, 2017 Author Share Posted June 30, 2017 Mike, the more overlap, the more power that's being delivered near cut-off. The A and AA puts the loudspeaker in its sweetspot with just a twitch on the VC. Al's ESNs are (I think), 120dB/octave between drivers. I had to take the volume to damn near 11 to get an open, cohesive sound. At low volumes, I thought it sounded like a lame dynamic radiator. True or false? "A tweeter with a third order high pass filter with a crossover frequency of 5000 Hz driven by the 100 watt amplifier used in the power chart above, will recieve about 1.6 watts at 2500 Hz versus 25 watts with a first order filter at full output." How do you think this might effect the sound at different volume levels? 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Deang Posted June 30, 2017 Author Share Posted June 30, 2017 avguytx - I have the AB-3 schematic if you want it. It's a lot of parts! Even with entry level parts, I'm sure it'll sound good - won't be cheap to build though, that's for sure. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mark1101 Posted June 30, 2017 Share Posted June 30, 2017 23 minutes ago, mikebse2a3 said: Hey Mark I have to ask by what mechanism or process do you and Dean believe dynamics is increased or reduced by using the different slope crossovers..? I believe if anyone was to take these comments as a truth/rule/or law between different slope rates that would be a mistake. It's not as simple as just changing slope rates when doing a comparison because unless someone is maintaining a target frequency spectrum balance and maintaining a smooth phase response through the crossover region either could be perceived as superior or inferior for a variety of reasons due to possibly poor implementation. miketn Mike, Although not mentioning I was referring to the fact that steeper slopes can significantly reduce the energy to the driver around cutoff, more so than the shallower slopes. This translates to less drive at those frequencies. In my own experimentation using the ALK ESNs, what I stated is what I hear, and how my equipment behaves. With those very steep slope networks you just don't get that same level of dynamics jumping out of the speakers like on the shallower slope ALK networks at approximately the same volumes (unscientific of course). However, on the steeper slope ALKs I do notice better clarity and especially as the volume gets louder compared to the shallower sloped ALK versions. When the question was asked about "steeper sloped AAs" I just naturally was referring to what I have played with for years and am well accustomed to the sound of which is the lineup of ALKs. Maybe you could start a new thread and give some examples about your comments. I would be interested. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CECAA850 Posted June 30, 2017 Share Posted June 30, 2017 32 minutes ago, Deang said: 120dB/octave between drivers. 120 or 12? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mikebse2a3 Posted June 30, 2017 Share Posted June 30, 2017 10 minutes ago, Deang said: Mike, the more overlap, the more power that's being delivered near cut-off. The A and AA puts the loudspeaker in its sweetspot with just a twitch on the VC. Al's ESNs are (I think), 120dB/octave between drivers. I had to take the volume to damn near 11 to get an open, cohesive sound. At low volumes, it sounded horrible to me. Interesting...Dean If the overlap is being adjusted to a target spectrum balance the combined power should be close to equal I believe. If your not adjusting to a target spectrum balance depending on the acoustical summation there could be an acoustical increase or decrease in the overlap region and while the max spl in the overlap region will possibly vary the dynamics of the music itself will not necessarily be altered as long as the max spl isn't exceeded for either network. I listened to Al's ESNs at Richards when he had the Khorns and I actually thought the sound was good at low volume. As an interesting side note while I was at Richards listening I could hear and measure a very notable room mode and I placed an equalizer momentarily in his system to compensate which brought about a very perceivable increase in clarity and quality of sound reproduction which was deemed at the time to be much more significant than anything the crossover change might have delivered. miketn Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CECAA850 Posted June 30, 2017 Share Posted June 30, 2017 11 minutes ago, Deang said: avguytx - I have the AB-3 schematic if you want it. It's a lot of parts! Even with entry level parts, I'm sure it'll sound good - won't be cheap to build though, that's for sure. Wow, it is. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mikebse2a3 Posted June 30, 2017 Share Posted June 30, 2017 46 minutes ago, Deang said: "A tweeter with a third order high pass filter with a crossover frequency of 5000 Hz driven by the 100 watt amplifier used in the power chart above, will recieve about 1.6 watts at 2500 Hz versus 25 watts with a first order filter at full output." How do you think this might effect the sound at different volume levels? The steeper slope will most likely have better clarity due to less modulation distortion at all listening levels.... (Of course all else being equal) miketn Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Deang Posted June 30, 2017 Author Share Posted June 30, 2017 Yes. But if you sit relatively close in a moderately sized listening room - the presentation is, as Mark said - more immediate and dynamic. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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