CECAA850 Posted July 13, 2016 Share Posted July 13, 2016 Btw, it looks like there is a new big boy on the market.... http://www.data-bass...e=system&id=131 Anybody know anything about this sub? Never heard of it. A 4 driver horn for 20k, whew. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jason str Posted July 13, 2016 Share Posted July 13, 2016 (edited) If you want to see a real sub, look at the T-60. It's 5 ft long, but 30" high and wide. Can be built to be moved, uses a much cheaper driver,. and would own the Orthorn inside or out. I have a really hard time believing that....The Lab12 just isn't a great driver and I'm not sure there is any horn out there that would provide enough gain to let it keep up with the B&C 21SW152 - even if the B&C were in a sealed cabinet. Frequency response is totally the wrong plot for understanding why that is the case. I also think it's important to look at performance versus cabinet volume. Physics dictates that low frequencies need a longer horn - and that's why Klipsch doesn't market a horn sub to the home audio market. They are selling subs that are the size people want in their home. For cinema Klipsch has the 1802HLS - that would be the sub to use in the home if you want a Klipsch branded horn loaded cabinet. Why are we always subjected to these crayon drawings on graph paper for the Fitzidiot designs? Every time I see a measurement taken with industry standard software and equipment, the response plots look totally different. Btw, it looks like there is a new big boy on the market.... http://www.data-bass.com/data?page=system&id=131 Anybody know anything about this sub? Tom Danley must not know anything about horns either as he uses Eminence Lab 12's in his designs as well. If you don't like colors in charts i think that would just be a personal preference. Edited July 13, 2016 by jason str Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Quiet_Hollow Posted July 13, 2016 Share Posted July 13, 2016 (edited) Why are we always subjected to these crayon drawings on graph paper for the Fitzidiot designs? So you're above napkin drawings now? You need to get over yourself. A plot is a plot. They're obviously not crayon, and they're not that far off in appearance from what HOLMImpulse outputs. I can only wager that they're transcribed into that format order to maintain visual distinction perhaps, but the data has been spot-on if not a bit on the conservative side IME. Completely unprofessional. Edited July 13, 2016 by Quiet_Hollow 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DrWho Posted July 13, 2016 Share Posted July 13, 2016 Eminence is a bargain basement driver supplier - you go with them because you want to increase your margins. It's the same reason Klipsch uses them. It's understandable because all that woodworking (for Danley and Klipsch) costs a lot - so you gotta take cost out elsewhere. It's totally a brilliant engineering move because you don't need as potent of a driver when you have a horn. It makes sense when you're trying to run a business and hit cost targets, etc... However, you don't run to Eminence because it will yield the best possible sound quality. It's simply not "great" stuff. Good? Adequate? Balanced compromise? Sure, absolutely. But if you're going to imply a bargain is somehow the best thing since sliced bread because your hero uses it, then you're just deluding yourself. I totally get it that several of us are cheapskates (myself included), but the money itself isn't a defining quality. Maybe it's just a personal thing, but when thinking about sound quality, the price is never a factor for me. The only thing price affects is what I personally own. It doesn't change how what I own sounds. The problem with the audiophile community is we're too elitist about what we own and want to prove to the world that we have the echelon music listening experience....and we've achieved it while spending just a few hundred dollars. To use a car analogy, I love my Elise, but I'm not naive enough to think it actually goes toe to toe with a Formula 1 car. Who cares if my fun per dollar is maximized? The Formula 1 car is still better and I don't have to piss on the Formula 1 car to enjoy my Elise. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DrWho Posted July 13, 2016 Share Posted July 13, 2016 (edited) So you're above napkin drawings now? A plot is a plot. Ain't nothing wrong with napkin drawings, but a napkin drawing certainly isn't a form of design validation - yikes! However, a plot is not just a plot. There is a reason we teach our interns and young engineers the importance of a rigorous repeatable test methodology. And my bad about the crayon....they're probably magic marker. Edited July 13, 2016 by DrWho 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jason str Posted July 13, 2016 Share Posted July 13, 2016 Eminence is a bargain basement driver supplier - you go with them because you want to increase your margins. It's the same reason Klipsch uses them. It's understandable because all that woodworking (for Danley and Klipsch) costs a lot - so you gotta take cost out elsewhere. It's totally a brilliant engineering move because you don't need as potent of a driver when you have a horn. It makes sense when you're trying to run a business and hit cost targets, etc... However, you don't run to Eminence because it will yield the best possible sound quality. It's simply not "great" stuff. Good? Adequate? Balanced compromise? Sure, absolutely. But if you're going to imply a bargain is somehow the best thing since sliced bread because your hero uses it, then you're just deluding yourself. I totally get it that several of us are cheapskates (myself included), but the money itself isn't a defining quality. Maybe it's just a personal thing, but when thinking about sound quality, the price is never a factor for me. The only thing price affects is what I personally own. It doesn't change how what I own sounds. The problem with the audiophile community is we're too elitist about what we own and want to prove to the world that we have the echelon music listening experience....and we've achieved it while spending just a few hundred dollars. To use a car analogy, I love my Elise, but I'm not naive enough to think it actually goes toe to toe with a Formula 1 car. Who cares if my fun per dollar is maximized? The Formula 1 car is still better and I don't have to piss on the Formula 1 car to enjoy my Elise. I have heard you praise the K-48-E many times here and in person and that is fact an Eminence driver, i don't understand your contradiction. You own a pair of Chorus II just as i do, in fact i have had a few sets over the years. Some of the better home audio systems i have heard contain Eminence drivers, that and many more live shows heard throughout the years used the brand in their pro equipment. I think it more depends on the design more than anything else, yes they may not be the worlds best but "not great" is simply far fetched. Sorry to the OP for going off track a bit here, my last words about this nonsense. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kg4guy Posted July 13, 2016 Share Posted July 13, 2016 (edited) If you can live with a 36x36x24 cabinet build a Othorn 21" Edited July 14, 2016 by kg4guy Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DrWho Posted July 13, 2016 Share Posted July 13, 2016 The K48 is a good driver and I enjoy the sound quite a bit. Just because I enjoy something doesn't mean I have to redefine it as "great". If it helps, I also like the sound of the Promedia 2.1 system and praise it a lot more than the Chorus II. That doesn't mean the Promedia sounds better, nor does it make the Promedia a great system. That SW152 on the other hand? It's definitely in the great driver category. Just try to find something with a higher Bl/Re rating, or more linear excursion characteristics. Maybe the vaporware Pro-5100? But then there's the IPAL version of the SW152.... All of this stuff is really about perspective. It's perfectly okay to enjoy the bargain solutions. I enjoy the bargains quite a bit. Perhaps I just have a different threshold for what I consider great. The K48 is not great in my opinion and its lack of greatness is why I've been looking for a proper alternative. I just haven't settled on one yet because I haven't found the proper the balance of compromises for my particular application. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mustang guy Posted July 14, 2016 Share Posted July 14, 2016 (edited) If you want to see a real sub, look at the T-60. It's 5 ft long, but 30" high and wide. Can be built to be moved, uses a much cheaper driver,. and would own the Orthorn inside or out. I have a really hard time believing that....The Lab12 just isn't a great driver and I'm not sure there is any horn out there that would provide enough gain to let it keep up with the B&C 21SW152 - even if the B&C were in a sealed cabinet. Frequency response is totally the wrong plot for understanding why that is the case. I also think it's important to look at performance versus cabinet volume. Physics dictates that low frequencies need a longer horn - and that's why Klipsch doesn't market a horn sub to the home audio market. They are selling subs that are the size people want in their home. For cinema Klipsch has the 1802HLS - that would be the sub to use in the home if you want a Klipsch branded horn loaded cabinet. Why are we always subjected to these crayon drawings on graph paper for the Fitzidiot designs? Every time I see a measurement taken with industry standard software and equipment, the response plots look totally different. Btw, it looks like there is a new big boy on the market.... http://www.data-bass.com/data?page=system&id=131 Anybody know anything about this sub? Fitzidiot? That's pretty harsh. That sounds a bit personal. I don't know the man, but I have built a few of his designs, and have been impressed with each of them. Lilmike is a smart guy, and he developed the Orthorn, and lot's of other great subs. Not only that, he offers the designs to the public domain. That is great. He didn't come up with the technology, that was Tom Danley. You are right to question my T-60 owning an Orthorn based on a FR chart. If the charts are accurate, then the T-60 is starting off with about a 6db efficiency advantage. There are two 400W RMS Lab12's inside the above referred to cabinet. With a 6 db efficiency advantage, the 21" B&C with an RMS of 2,000 may indeed overtake the T-60 slightly in many frequencies. The T-60 has a longer horn path, however, so it would win the LF battle hypothetically. Edited July 14, 2016 by mustang guy 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CECAA850 Posted July 14, 2016 Share Posted July 14, 2016 (edited) I wasn't aware thar Danley invented the tapped horn. Edited July 14, 2016 by CECAA850 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mustang guy Posted July 14, 2016 Share Posted July 14, 2016 (edited) I wasn't aware thar Danley invented the tapped horn. Yup. Has the patent on the idea: http://www.google.com/patents/US8457341 A patent pending on the idea with the name: http://www.danleysoundlabs.com/danley/wp-content/uploads/2012/01/The-Tapped-Horn.pdf His company Danley Sound Labs also has the trademark: https://trademarks.justia.com/853/98/tapped-horn-subwoofer-85398361.html Edited July 14, 2016 by mustang guy Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mustang guy Posted July 14, 2016 Share Posted July 14, 2016 One more thing. Even though ideas like this have been implemented in designs dating back to the 40's, Tom Danley was the first to make this work in a useful manner. Read this thread at least to #5 which was Danley's response: http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/subwoofers/135879-evolution-tapped-horn.html Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marvel Posted July 14, 2016 Share Posted July 14, 2016 Do you mind me asking where you get your information from Bruce ? I will post tomorrow... it's been a long day... Bruce Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kg4guy Posted July 14, 2016 Share Posted July 14, 2016 (edited) Check these new subs out. http://www.hennesseysounddesign.com/sub-woofers/ Edited July 14, 2016 by kg4guy Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jason str Posted July 14, 2016 Share Posted July 14, 2016 Check these new subs out. http://www.hennesseysounddesign.com/sub-woofers/ Those look familiar. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CECAA850 Posted July 14, 2016 Share Posted July 14, 2016 One more thing. Even though ideas like this have been implemented in designs dating back to the 40's, Tom Danley was the first to make this work in a useful manner. Read this thread at least to #5 which was Danley's response: http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/subwoofers/135879-evolution-tapped-horn.html Thanks for the links. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mustang guy Posted July 14, 2016 Share Posted July 14, 2016 (edited) Check these new subs out. http://www.hennesseysounddesign.com/sub-woofers/ I like those. They haven't listed any prices but they do sell flat packs which is cool. edit: I did find their facebook https://www.facebook.com/HennesseySoundDesign/ Edited July 14, 2016 by mustang guy Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
homeskizzle Posted July 14, 2016 Share Posted July 14, 2016 If you want to see a real sub, look at the T-60. It's 5 ft long, but 30" high and wide. Can be built to be moved, uses a much cheaper driver,. and would own the Orthorn inside or out. I have a really hard time believing that....The Lab12 just isn't a great driver and I'm not sure there is any horn out there that would provide enough gain to let it keep up with the B&C 21SW152 - even if the B&C were in a sealed cabinet. Frequency response is totally the wrong plot for understanding why that is the case. I also think it's important to look at performance versus cabinet volume. Physics dictates that low frequencies need a longer horn - and that's why Klipsch doesn't market a horn sub to the home audio market. They are selling subs that are the size people want in their home. For cinema Klipsch has the 1802HLS - that would be the sub to use in the home if you want a Klipsch branded horn loaded cabinet. Why are we always subjected to these crayon drawings on graph paper for the Fitzidiot designs? Every time I see a measurement taken with industry standard software and equipment, the response plots look totally different. Btw, it looks like there is a new big boy on the market.... http://www.data-bass.com/data?page=system&id=131 Anybody know anything about this sub? Josh said he'll post some info later about the new big boy. Don't know when that'll be, but it should be interesting nonetheless. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mustang guy Posted July 14, 2016 Share Posted July 14, 2016 (edited) If you want to see a real sub, look at the T-60. It's 5 ft long, but 30" high and wide. Can be built to be moved, uses a much cheaper driver,. and would own the Orthorn inside or out. I have a really hard time believing that....The Lab12 just isn't a great driver and I'm not sure there is any horn out there that would provide enough gain to let it keep up with the B&C 21SW152 - even if the B&C were in a sealed cabinet. Frequency response is totally the wrong plot for understanding why that is the case. I also think it's important to look at performance versus cabinet volume. Physics dictates that low frequencies need a longer horn - and that's why Klipsch doesn't market a horn sub to the home audio market. They are selling subs that are the size people want in their home. For cinema Klipsch has the 1802HLS - that would be the sub to use in the home if you want a Klipsch branded horn loaded cabinet. Why are we always subjected to these crayon drawings on graph paper for the Fitzidiot designs? Every time I see a measurement taken with industry standard software and equipment, the response plots look totally different. Btw, it looks like there is a new big boy on the market.... http://www.data-bass.com/data?page=system&id=131 Anybody know anything about this sub? Josh said he'll post some info later about the new big boy. Don't know when that'll be, but it should be interesting nonetheless. That sub is the most capable sub they've measured to date. Good to about 100Hz before distortion starts. It is tuned like the Danley DTS-10, but way bigger. This would be like stacking 3 DTS-10's which would weigh 855 lbs and be 60x44x48. Edited July 14, 2016 by mustang guy Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jason str Posted July 14, 2016 Share Posted July 14, 2016 (edited) If you want to see a real sub, look at the T-60. It's 5 ft long, but 30" high and wide. Can be built to be moved, uses a much cheaper driver,. and would own the Orthorn inside or out. I have a really hard time believing that....The Lab12 just isn't a great driver and I'm not sure there is any horn out there that would provide enough gain to let it keep up with the B&C 21SW152 - even if the B&C were in a sealed cabinet. Frequency response is totally the wrong plot for understanding why that is the case. I also think it's important to look at performance versus cabinet volume. Physics dictates that low frequencies need a longer horn - and that's why Klipsch doesn't market a horn sub to the home audio market. They are selling subs that are the size people want in their home. For cinema Klipsch has the 1802HLS - that would be the sub to use in the home if you want a Klipsch branded horn loaded cabinet. Why are we always subjected to these crayon drawings on graph paper for the Fitzidiot designs? Every time I see a measurement taken with industry standard software and equipment, the response plots look totally different. Btw, it looks like there is a new big boy on the market.... http://www.data-bass.com/data?page=system&id=131 Anybody know anything about this sub? Josh said he'll post some info later about the new big boy. Don't know when that'll be, but it should be interesting nonetheless. That sub is the most capable sub they've measured to date. Good to about 100Hz before distortion starts. It is tuned like the Danley DTS-10, but way bigger. This would be like stacking 3 DTS-10's which would weigh 855 lbs and be 60x44x48. Build a 60" x 44" x 48" cardboard box ( if you can find enough cardboard) and see how big this really is, no way this is going to realistically fit in any interior space or fit through any doorway unless you live in a barn or maybe Mustang guy's shop. Edited July 14, 2016 by jason str 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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