Suggestions regarding police interactions

[prerich]

People in Huntsville Alabama don't own Buicks?Keith

Apparently young, black men don't own new Buicks in Huntsville.

[Jeff Matthews]

http://www.slate.com/blogs/the_slatest/2016/07/07/philando_castile_s_girlfriend_gives_press_conference_on_wednesday_night.html

 

"“My boyfriend carries all his information in a thick wallet in his right side back pocket,” Reynolds said. “As he’s reaching for his back pocket wallet he lets the officer know,  ‘Officer, I have a firearm on me.’ I begin to yell, ‘But he’s licensed to carry.’ ” According to Reynolds, the officer started firing shortly after."

 

 

If accurate, that just ain't right.  Best I can tell, this is a laid back guy who was a grade school cafeteria supervisor, in a tiny little rural town in Minnesota.  I mean, come on, this wasn't a thug that was pulled over in east St. Louis.  Just kinda looks like that officer got spooked over not much of anything.  

 

If I was a cop, I'd have been very nervous if a guy I pulled over said, "I have a gun" and started reaching where I could not see.

 

I am not sure what a properly-restrained response by the cop ought to be.  It's simply not a good situation.

 

There is much to be learned from these tragedies, but just like the gun control debate, I don't see a whole lot changing.  The cop who waits an extra half second could easily wind up being a dead cop.

 

Cops flirt with grave danger all the time.  Does anyone remember the days before the police were militarized?  Back then, it was atrocious to us how the drug cartels and gang-bangers were out-gunning the police.  Simply intolerable from a law enforcement perspective.  The cops went through a change, and they now bring their "A" game wherever they go.  Heck, I would, too.  

 

I would not want to be a cop.  There is no good reason to make them nervous.  The Bill of Rights doesn't protect the dead.

[prerich]

That brings up a good point--If the police ask to search your car should you let them?

 

In my opinion, no, not at all, you should plainly state that you do not consent to a search but you will not resist.  The 4th amendment doesn't exist for nothing, and nothing good can come from it.  

 

Same thing when they ask "where are you going"?  You point down the road and say "that way".  I realize this is a seemingly innocent tactic to see if you start giving weird conflicting statements and more or less to see how you react, but still, It's none of their business where you are going, nothing good can come from your explanation.  This is America, we don't have the Gestapo here.  We shouldn't act like we do.

That brings up a good point--If the police ask to search your car should you let them?

 

In my opinion, no, not at all, you should plainly state that you do not consent to a search but you will not resist.  The 4th amendment doesn't exist for nothing, and nothing good can come from it.  

 

Same thing when they ask "where are you going"?  You point down the road and say "that way".  I realize this is a seemingly innocent tactic to see if you start giving weird conflicting statements and more or less to see how you react, but still, It's none of their business where you are going, nothing good can come from your explanation.  This is America, we don't have the Gestapo here.  We shouldn't act like we do.

you know a statement like "that way" would generally escalate the situation...right?

[Mallette]

As an attorney and former prosecutor, my answer is YES. A street interaction with a police officer is not the time to instruct the officer on the law.

 

Arrghh, Neil.  Your idea of fixing this egregious breach of basic rights by doing it in court presumes you wind up in court.  Otherwise, you've simply abandoned your civic duty to uphold the law of the land.  I refused searches on several occasions growing up and never thought a thing about it, as I was taught the law early.  Now you are suggesting that the average officer isn't going to have what a 16 year old did 50 years ago. 

 

If this is the case there is NO protection possible.

 

JMHO.

 

Also, like you, I am surprised...and pleased...this thread has stayed a civil course. 

 

Dave

[DizRotus]

Dave

 

I'm not saying that a respectful decline to be illegally arrested, searched, etc. is inappropriate.  A well trained and well intentioned officer will not pursue it.  I am saying that a street level pissing match with a bully with a badge and a gun is a no win proposition.  Being dead right can get you dead, right?

Edited July 11, 2016 by DizRotus

[Zen Traveler]

There is much to be learned from these tragedies, but just like the gun control debate, I don't see a whole lot changing. The cop who waits an extra half second could easily wind up being a dead cop.

 

Did you just bring up the Gun Control debate?

[Jeff Matthews]

 

There is much to be learned from these tragedies, but just like the gun control debate, I don't see a whole lot changing. The cop who waits an extra half second could easily wind up being a dead cop.

 

Did you just bring up the Gun Control debate?

 

 

Hair trigger?

[Mallette]

I am saying that a street level pissing match with a bully with a badge and a gun is a no win proposition. Being dead right can get you dead, right?

 

Agreed.  Perhaps I missed the pissing match part.  I am just saying that I would politely, but firmly, insist on a search warrant unless confronted with a clearly incompetent cop.  In acquiescing if the situation required, I'd make every effort to have a positive ID of the officer and immediately travel to the station to lodge a complaint. 

 

It isn't just the duty of the police to uphold the law, but of the citizens as well.  As a soldier, I swore to defend the constitution against all enemies, foreign and DOMESTIC. 

 

And, no, he didn't, ZT.   He made an analogy. 

 

Dave

Edited July 11, 2016 by Mallette

[prerich]

As a resident of Florida, I've basically complied if stopped. My only bad experiences have been in Alabama. However I can sympathize with Teaman...Windsor tunnel and ambassador bridge...LOL brings back memories. We'd always go to Canada for our beef because of the PBB/ PCB poisoning in the mid 70's! It took forever to get through customs!!!! How I miss Canada, pretty meat, the best ice cream sundae I ever had, and aged black rind cheddar (so old and strong it crumbled)!!!!!!!! Good times, good times!!!!

Edited July 11, 2016 by prerich

[Zen Traveler]

And, no, he didn't, ZT. He made an analogy.

 

My bad--I mistakenly thought it was your post and was trying to be funny.

[Mallette]

Hmph...a likely story.  I want to search your computer...

 

So now you have a cops attention and you've pissed off a lawyer.

 

Dave

Edited July 11, 2016 by Mallette

[Jeff Matthews]

Hmph...a likely story.  I want to search your computer...

 

Dave

 

That's "Hmph, sir!"

[Zen Traveler]

There is much to be learned from these tragedies, but just like the gun control debate, I don't see a whole lot changing. The cop who waits an extra half second could easily wind up being a dead cop.

Did you just bring up the Gun Control debate?

Hair trigger?

Evidently so--My apologies.

[Mallette]

See, ZT, it goes both ways.  Mine is still quite fastened in the holster...  

 

Dave

[Mallette]

So...you re-thought it?   

 

Dave

[garyrc]

... Otoh, I had someone on here yesterday tell me that he should be able to say anything he ******* wants to to the police if he didn't break any laws.......There is a definite gray area in there in which I could agree, but I think the dynamics in poorer neighborhoods speaks more of racial history that also clouds these situations.

 

I believe the Supreme Court decided, sometime in the '60s, that it was legal to swear at a cop, and that doing so could not be considered to be "resisting," "interfering," etc.  Was this ever overturned?  Lawyers please step forward.  While such self-expression may be legal, and, IMO, should be legal, it is certainly not recommended!   The advice of DizRotus' son should be followed. 

 

See, we can play nice on this forum.  I have only seen one post that clearly violated the TOS, and I think it would be a shame to lock it for that one transgression.  I applaud the moderators for leaving it open.  Many good points have been made, and we, and the whole country, really need to talk about this stuff. 

[Zen Traveler]

So...you re-thought it?   

 

Dave

Honestly, I already addressed my mistake with a non sequitur and.didn't want to pollute the conversation any further.

Edited July 12, 2016 by Zen Traveler

[Mallette]

I applaud the moderators for leaving it open.

 

I saw it,  but others had already posted and ignored it.  My judgment was that if no one responded there was no need to lock a civil and needed discussion.  And I won't as long as it stays that way.

 

Dave

[Paducah Home Theater]

 

That brings up a good point--If the police ask to search your car should you let them?

 

As an attorney and former prosecutor, my answer is YES.  A street interaction with a police officer is not the time to instruct the officer on the law.  If an officer asked for my phone or to search my car, I would politely ask if he/she has a warrant.  That said, I would not risk a physical altercation to avoid an illegal search of my car or seizure of the phone.  If your rights are violated you can address that later through proper channels.  If you're shot and killed by an angry officer, your opportunity to appeal is gone.

 

If you give them permission to search, your rights along with your ability to appeal is pretty much gone, no?  I don't see how you can give them permission then turn around and do what you're saying.  

[MercedesBerater]

I don't know if this adds to the conversation or is just a sidebar. But I've had multiple interactions with police, like some here have mentioned they have had.

I have two short stories, however anecdotal. Same person, Me. Same car, mine. Two very very different outcomes.

1) living in very affluent Naperville, Illinois driving a very large body German car with 5% window tint on each window except windshield I made a lane change without signaling. I was pulled over. I pulled entirely off the roadway. Rolled down all four windows, opened sunroof, turned 4-ways (hazard lights) on, switched engine off, keys on roof, hands grasping door/window sill.

Officer approached hand on holster, and saw the keys on the roof. Looked around in my car front and back seat. He asked license and reg. I asked if I may unbuckle my seat belt and then asked for permission to reach into pocket for ID, and into glove box. I opened glove box, asked if he would like to inspect before I reach in. He had a strange smirk on his face and said no, go ahead. I handed him my ID and he glanced at it. He handed it back. Asked if I knew why I was pulled over. I said yes, I failed to indicate my lane change. He then asked me why the windows, keys on roof and all that- he asked if I was making fun of him. I said no officer, you have a scary job- we don't know each other and I wanted you to feel safe. I would like to not be shot today. It was a blunt answer- but very much the truth. I was let go with a warning.

2) same car. Different town. I was leaving work and traveling through the "ghetto" across town to my home. I was at a red light from a two way street onto a one way street. I had a pack of Marlboro red's on my gear selector surround, but my lighter was in my pocket. I raised my hips to access my pocket and lit my cigarette after getting lighter out. After turning when light went green, Window was cracked maybe 2" to ash the cig. I had a black crown Vic right on my tail.. And I mean close! Lights and Siren going. It was an undercover car- the lights were on the sun visors. I pulled over as far as I could due to a large curb. Two officers approached my car. One on the passenger side gun drawn pointing about 4-5 feet in front of him at the ground. Driver cop approached my drivers side and yelled at my car to roll windows down. (I had barely just turned my vehicle off and switched my hazard lights on!) they were there so fast! I rolled my windows down & I was yelled at to get out of the vehicle and lay on the ground. I called back to the officer asking what I had done and why I was being asked to get out. No response.. Well not a verbal one. I was pulled from my vehicle, handcuffed, and put in back of their cruiser. They then searched my entire car.. I was released after about a 30-45min long ordeal. I was told they were looking for weapons because they saw me try to hide a weapon when I was at the stop light.

So- my anecdotal evidence says- where you live makes a huge difference in how you are judged and perceived. Mind you- I'm no gang banger looking thug. The closest thing I own to gang banger was the tinted windows or maybe a Mercedes-Benz put crew racing jersey. Not fubu, not white sox hats and whatever else that seem to be stereotypical.

Maybe situation 1 was white priveledge? And 2 was just fluke? Doubtful... Seems to happen all to much. Luckily I wasn't killed! It scares me to be pulled over these days.. And I have skin color on my side. I can't imagine the terror in the black community or the police community these days. And those stories 1 & 2 were not that long ago.

Sad days. I hope drastic change is possible.