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New Volti Rival


EmilC
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1 hour ago, Tarheel said:

I bet even Carl resorts to a manual before taking an engine apart or rebuilding a transmission.

Pfffft.  we don't need no stinkin manuals.  Most of the time we even use all the parts when we go back together.

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1 hour ago, NOSValves said:

I have no problem with that line of thinking and I bet Greg wouldn't either!

 

I too feel Greg Roberts would probably agree with most, if not all, of what I posted.

 

Another thing to consider when criticizing Volti, Shinall, Speakerlab and the like, is that enthusiasts, who might be prejudiced against Klipsch and/or horns, are exposed to horn speakers they might like.  Audiophools -- snobs -- will never concede that Klipsch, or any horn-loaded speakers, sound better than their mega-dollar speakers.

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2 hours ago, DizRotus said:

@Max2 well said.  No matter how it's phrased, there are those who feel any suggestion that "improvements" or "upgrades" can be made to PWK's designs is blasphemy.  IMO, PWK was an excellent engineer who designed excellent products that could be manufactured and sold at a profit  I suspect he would acknowledge that improvements could be made, especially given new designs and materials available today, and especially if there were no budget constraints.

 

That said, all "upgrades" are not equal.  Many here perceived the implications of some modifiers as arrogance to even suggest that they knew more than PWK, or Roy Delgado.  IMO, they don't know more than Klipsch engineers, but they have the luxury of making changes that would not be commercially viable.

 

Hobbyists have a right to modify their speakers.  If they perceive an improvement, good for them.  They should not for an instant suggest or believe that they know more than PWK or Roy Delgado.  It seems that Greg Roberts caused people to infer that he was implying knowledge superior to PWK and Roy.  If he was, he's mistaken.  IMO, he has taken PWK's designs and applied exceptional woodworking skills and a cost no object approach to components to produce gorgeous speakers that Klipsch could never -- would never -- produce and sell for a profit.  I have no doubt that Volti products sound as good as they look, at least to their customers.  I also have no doubt that Roy Delgado has forgotten more about speaker design than Greg Roberts will ever know.  If Klipsch were in a position to produce such boutique speakers, IMO, they would design, test and build speakers better than Volti.  The reality is they address different markets.

 

Go ahead and choose Volti, just don't suggest that Greg Roberts knows more than PWK or Roy; he doesn't.

 

 

Well you started out great and then went right back to grinding the axe.

 

 

He said, she said who knows more, I don't care and I don't even remember that blow up, but don't put words in my mouth about suggesting that Im "choosing" Volti or that I have said or insinuated that someone knows more than anyone else as I have never ever done that.  

 

I own one component that Greg actually built and thats it. Yes, its a game changer for me, but Im no "Volti" cheerleader Diz.  Having said that, the guy is out there building, designing and getting great reviews from some pretty "tight seated" reviewers for his products, so kudos to him.   

 

Oh, Klipsch did build what I consider a boutique line, that was the Palladium offering.  

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Nope, just Amy - who even tweaked a couple of my posts at my request AFTER the thread was locked.

 

if you're going to have the cajones to build on someone else's intellectual property - give credit - thems the rules. 

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I have heard the Volti Audio Vittoras in person and they sounded wonderful!  I wasn't surprised one bit -- they are based on Klipsch designs, they sound like Klipsch, and I love the Klipsch sound.  So it was no surprise to me.

 

I don't think I really have that much of a problem with copying the Klipsch designs.  Several companies have already done this as noted above (Speakerlab, Shinall, and Eclipse is probably even more recent).  All of these companies built and sold "Klipschorns" without having to compensate Klipsch.  The patents are long expired and it is completely legal.  It's how our laws and economy work.

 

Several years ago when Mr. Volti started making his "own" brand of speakers (no longer just refurbishing Klipsch), he had the below statement posted on his website:

 

"Volti Audio builds the best horn speakers. We also make the very best upgrades for Klipsch Khorn and Belle speakers. I grew up with the Klipsch sound . . . I have now grown up to appreciate a higher quality sound. Greg Roberts"

 

The last sentence is what really rubbed me the wrong way.  It may not have been intended in the manner I read it, but I interpret that as taking a shot at Klipsch for marketing. Here he is "standing on the shoulders" of PWK, copying his designs, and then disparaging Klipsch speakers all for the sake of chasing the almighty dollar.  Mr. Volti is a fantastic woodworker, but I lost some respect for him when I read that sentence.

 

On 6/8/2017 at 3:58 PM, Deang said:

if you're going to have the cajones to build on someone else's intellectual property - give credit - thems the rules. 

Agreed!  And by all means, for sure don't criticize the people you are copying -- that's hipocritical!

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What happened to this thread.  Looks like "attack" was turned on.

A couple of comments:

1. don't disparage or otherwise design facets that inspire your or you replicate

2. nothing wrong with the replicate portion of #1 if there are no patents involved or you can "claim" some novel idea beyond the original patent

3. it's nice to have the guts to go into business for yourself, and if you do, your success is limited by your allegiance or lack of in this industry

4. don't sit on your butt if you have adequate information that can make your product better, use that info to your advantage (version 2 for example)  We know Klipsch never made any version II speakers.  The specs JA posted in Stereophile will taint a large number of folks from purchasing from an internet sales dept, particularly in that price range.  Fix some of those shortcomings.

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11 hours ago, JMON said:

I wasn't surprised one bit -- they are based on Klipsch designs, they sound like Klipsch, and I love the Klipsch sound.  So it was no surprise to me.

 

Surely nobody believes that PWK invented the horn loudspeaker! Horns were around long before Paul Klipsch was around. Even folded horns were around before Paul Klipsch was around.

 

You can see the Klipsch patents for yourself; https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Paul_Wilbur_Klipsch#Patents. His first loudspeaker patent, 2310243, was for a corner-mounted back-loaded horn. Even there, PWK admitted that, "It is customary to shorten the outside dimensions of horns by folding ..." His second, 2373692, was for what became the Klipschorn. His third, 2537141, was for a midrange horn "for the achievement of specified wide angles of radiation". His fourth, 2731101, was for another back-loaded corner horn. His fifth, 4138594, was for a rectangular single-path horn that bears resemblance to the University "Classic". (The Classic was available at least as early as 1956, while patent 4138594 was issued in 1979, so who copied whom?) His sixth and final loudspeaker patent was for the MWM in 1980.

 

All you need to do is have a look here http://photo.qip.ru/users/tda-audio/182333/ to see that there are only a limited number of ways to fold a horn. So if the Vittoria resembles the LaScala, it's only because the LaScala resembles so many others.

Edited by Edgar
Found that the Classic was introduced in 1956, not 1963.
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21 hours ago, CECAA850 said:

Fair enough.  You must be from Missouri.

 

Nope I just have never read reviews in the rags that I would consider consistantly honest...have you ever seen a audio rag come out a say a product was shite? The reviewer are all indirectly paid by the companies of the products they are reviewing.... not exactly conducive of untainted opinion.

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21 hours ago, Tarheel said:

So what's a guy to do......buy all the equipment blind and pull them apart, audition, and then decide if you like it or not?  I need something to point me in the right direction to get started.  I bet even Carl resorts to a manual before taking an engine apart or rebuilding a transmission.

 

 

Talk on forums, get to know people and get your impressions from people that are not making a living in any aspect of the audio business (yup that includes me)...and then you have to realize that no two people on the planet hear the same, no two rooms are the same and person preference is a huge deciding factor...NO BEST EXISTS IN AUDIO.

 

 The best is what pleases you the user and owner of your system. 

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On 6/8/2017 at 1:47 PM, Arash said:

 

Audiophiles are Audiophiles! We are Klipschophiles! Who cares about those people that tend to spend all their money on speakers with small and inefficient drivers with restricted dynamic range? who can impose his metrology to people to measure which sound is better? sound should be admired by the listener so it's a subjective matter. To me a La Scala sounds better that those mega dollar speakers out there

 

 

The point was not to care about audiophiles....the point was that Volti Audio's customer base are high end, high dollar audiophiles not the normal Klipsch customer base so they are not competing for the most part. 

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18 hours ago, Deang said:

Nope, just Amy - who even tweaked a couple of my posts at my request AFTER the thread was locked.

 

if you're going to have the cajones to build on someone else's intellectual property - give credit - thems the rules. 

Dean you are the most guilty of Jealously when it comes to Greg.... I could probably list 50 different helping hand type things I have given you over the years for your business that I have never received credit for...who cares..give it up dude it makes you look petty. 

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Why aren't you dogging John Allen and HPS-4000 for ripping-off Klipsch?  Some of you state his A55G is a superior squawker.

 

Why do you give Peavey and its FH-1 a pass?

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Why don't you slam Sansui's SP-3500 as a Cornwall rip-off?

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The Vittora is NOT a La Scala, less so than an FH-1.  I don't remember any blow-up over/by Mr. Roberts.  I checked out when ALK got so bitter and angry (for no good reason) and the drama that caused.  Of course Roberts will say his product is the best in the world, who would say "We build the SLK, almost as good as an 850i"?  It's time for a little more Libertarian approach. 

 

Obviously, we all like Klipsch, but other manufacturers make good speakers, too.  Martin-Logan SL-3s sound remarkably like my La Scalas.  I truly enjoyed a Holly Cole CD through them once. 

 

I am a Ducatisti, but I have a Kawasaki and an old Honda, too.  I don't hide that on a Ducati Forum, but I don't dog someone who discusses his new Aprilia on the Duc Forum, either.  A good Aprilia does not diminish a Duc.  A good Rival does not diminish a Cornwall.  This pettiness diminishes the Forum. 

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1 hour ago, John Albright said:

Why do you give Peavey and its FH-1 a pass?

you are completely missing the point bro! a folded horn is a folded horn so no wonder that VIttora reminisces La Scala or Belle. it's about a guy who collected all the data from "Klipsch community" and concocted a commercial products and never mentioned anything about "Klipsch community" in his interview but also advertised in his website that  "I grew up with Klipsch speakers and now I've now grown up to appreciate higher sound quality...". It's totally stepping on PWK's head to go up.

I also can recall that Mr Volti once claimed he had the right to build and sell ALK crossover network just because he had used a base board with a different color than what ALK was using in that time! funny as hell

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Hi John, my issue wasn't with building on Klipsch' intellectual property, but not not giving credit where credit is due - and/or taking credit for something he didn't actually do. 

 

Remember the DHA2? I modified it to work like a Universal. How would you have felt if I had said - "Hey, check out this cool thing I developed" - without mentioning you at all? Not only did I give you credit, but asked you for permission to build it!

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Craig, what technical contributions did you make to my business model? 

 

You definitely helped me with advice on how to get a legal business going - but I don't remember anything else other than, " don't use those damn Hovlands in a Type A crossover. :-)

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