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AA networks...


Schu

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Max2,

18 hours ago, Max2 said:

So are we going to see a response chart with a modern LS II ?  I wonder why Klipsch no longer posts those in the advertisements like they did years ago?   Everyone is talking of the improvements on paper and I would like to see it.

 

Edit:

 

Maybe I'm intruding "here" asking about the changes of the 4 and 5 series, like where the frequency cutoff is? It would be informative to know what the mid is no longer getting and has been diverted to the 55D tweeter. 

"77D"

 

A smoothed response in a marketing brochure doesn't tell you much. Most consumers are educated enough at this point that they understand the concept of +/- 3dB from whatever to whatever. Additional information would sound like gibberish to the average consumer. Maybe Klipsch should treat their customers like "intelligent customers" - but I don't think it would help sales much. 

 

The published crossover point is 4.5kHz. This about is where the mass roll off of the driver occurs. The idea is not to make the driver do something it wasn't meant to do. This gives you just a little over three octaves in the midrange, and a good power response. The slopes are steeper, some correction is applied - so there are a lot of elements. 

 

The A and AA work a little differently. I guess we can just say that "his thinking at the time" might have went something like this: The drivers are fairly linear in their behavior, and the room will swamp small variations in the response. I can use the collapsing verticals of the horn to increase on-axis gain, which gets me to 6KHz - giving me almost four octaves. 

 

The downside is an uneven power response/beaming - but most of us sit on-axis - all I know is that I prefer a nicely built A and AA. My rooms aren't large and I've always sat within 12 feet. I also don't listen at blistering levels - I haven't done that in ten years or more. There are other problems, but I seem to be immune to them.

 

If you move away from the single phase plug design to one of the two piece designs - there is a performance improvement - and it's noticeable. 

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How do you see passive crossover networks affecting the coverage/polar response of horns and drivers?  This is a mystery to me, except in the crossover pass bands, where one driver may or may not be supporting the other horn/driver at some relative gain/SPL (or phase of that driver's channel), or by changing the effective crossover frequency.

 

Chris

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1 hour ago, Chris A said:

I've found that after careful EQing of each loudspeaker for flat on-axis response and phase...that any differences in the sound of the passive crossovers simply disappears. 

 

We did this in Hope back in 2007. The passive filter walked all over the active set up. Didn't talk to a single person in the room except two who saw it any other way. 

 

To make this statement, I'm guessing you have a pair of Jubilee passives on hand. What parts did you use - and where are your comparison plots proving your assertions?

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9 minutes ago, Chris A said:

How do you see passive crossover networks affecting the coverage/polar response of horns and drivers?  This is a mystery to me, except in the crossover pass bands, where one driver may or may not be supporting the other horn/driver at some relative gain/SPL (or phase of that driver's channel), or by changing the effective crossover frequency.

 

Chris

You just answered your own question. 

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13 minutes ago, Deang said:

I'm guessing you have a pair of Jubilee passives on hand.

You're guessing wrong--as it is.  A 1981 Belle and 1979 Cornwalls for comparison.  I'll do you one better-you show me two in-room plots comparing the same loudspeaker but different crossover settings/components, and I'll show you a handful of measurements on both the Belle and the Cornwalls.

 

Chris

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3 minutes ago, Deang said:

You just answered your own question. 

So you can't do anything about "beaming", etc. at some frequency unless it happens to be in the crossover region?

 

Chris

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On 8/23/2016 at 6:27 AM, wdecho said:

As with all lengthy threads we have strayed from Shu's purchase of his new AA's I hope you are enjoying them very much.  

 

You are probably right, there is a little thread drift.  But I think the discussion is very much on-point and relevant.

 

We have several factions represented here.  We have the Builder, The Engineer, the Tinkerer (you B) ), the Pilot, the Subjectivist, the Objectivest, and then Me, the Undecided.  Most of us fit into at least a Primary Category, and at least one Secondary.

 

Speaking for myself, I have learned from ALL sides and I hope the discussion continues.

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  • Klipsch Employees
6 hours ago, Deang said:

 

We did this in Hope back in 2007. The passive filter walked all over the active set up. Didn't talk to a single person in the room except two who saw it any other way. 

 

To make this statement, I'm guessing you have a pair of Jubilee passives on hand. What parts did you use - and where are your comparison plots proving your assertions?

ok 50cent......walked all over the active?  talking to your various "selfes" doesnt count.. :)

 

i was there myself and the passive had every setting that was in the active accounted for except for time delay, although i made sure that the acoustic addition and total phase of the network AND drivers were at least in some rotation where they added acoustically.  steep filters reducing the interference band helps alot with that because you HAVE to excited the interference band to hear it. once again...thanks mr harvey.

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6 hours ago, Deang said:

 

The downside is an uneven power response/beaming - but most of us sit on-axis - all I know is that I prefer a nicely built A and AA. My rooms aren't large and I've always sat within 12 feet. I also don't listen at blistering levels - I haven't done that in ten years or more. There are other problems, but I seem to be immune to them.

 

If you move away from the single phase plug design to one of the two piece designs - there is a performance improvement - and it's noticeable. 

because of the uneven power response/beaming, the room because an "equalizer" even more, doesnt it?

 

and one, two, three or four...how pieces to a phase plug must you have to change beaming?

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7 hours ago, Chris A said:

You're guessing wrong--as it is.  A 1981 Belle and 1979 Cornwalls for comparison.  I'll do you one better-you show me two in-room plots comparing the same loudspeaker but different crossover settings/components, and I'll show you a handful of measurements on both the Belle and the Cornwalls.

 

Chris

That would be hard for me to do. I've kind of settled into this sound, don't have any other networks, and sold my microphone years ago. Feel free to share what you have though - it is interesting. 

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1 hour ago, Chief bonehead said:

because of the uneven power response/beaming, the room because an "equalizer" even more, doesnt it?

 

and one, two, three or four...how pieces to a phase plug must you have to change beaming?

Don't really understand the first sentence. 

 

I didn't mean to infer that the drivers with the two piece phase plug design improve the power response, only that they sound better. The mass breakpoint is higher - closer to the transition point. 

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1 hour ago, Chief bonehead said:

ok 50cent......walked all over the active?  talking to your various "selfes" doesnt count.. :)

 

i was there myself and the passive had every setting that was in the active accounted for except for time delay, although i made sure that the acoustic addition and total phase of the network AND drivers were at least in some rotation where they added acoustically.  steep filters reducing the interference band helps alot with that because you HAVE to excited the interference band to hear it. once again...thanks mr harvey.

 

I thought the passives sounded better, even though I didn't want them to. I asked quite a few what they thought, and there was a lot of agreement on that.

 

I'm tired of network talk - I have a horn question(s). 

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1 hour ago, Deang said:

Feel free to share what you have though - it is interesting. 

Fair enough - I'll start a new thread on the subject to leave this one to its intended purpose.

 

Chris

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1 hour ago, Deang said:

That would be hard for me to do. I've kind of settled into this sound, don't have any other networks, and sold my microphone years ago. Feel free to share what you have though - it is interesting. 

I am going to be a bit of jerk here but ..... Let me get the big picture here.

Your are designing networks/crossovers but you no longer have measurements/microphone equipment. There is something wrong here. On one side there are folks arguing about beeswax vs paper in oil on there other side there are folks arguing about  the transfer function (measurements). It is hard to take this seriously.

This is an engineering endeavor. why are we rejecting a simple facts from physics?

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54 minutes ago, PrestonTom said:

 

Your are designing networks/crossovers but you no longer have measurements/microphone equipment. There is something wrong here.

 

 

I'm not Dean, but your premise is not correct.  Dean has made it clear that in the past he assembled and sold networks, I don't remember him saying he designed them.  More to your point, he is NOT designing them now. 

 

If your premise was correct Tom, your conclusion would be as well, but I don't think that's the case here.  Dean can correct me if I'm wrong, it won't hurt my feelings.

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