Max2 Posted August 30, 2016 Share Posted August 30, 2016 1 hour ago, absolve2525 said: Why does the AK2 get attacked? Some people prefer less forward midrange. I would always see people on here saying to dump the AK2 and move to AK3 or something else. I'm honestly curious. No attacking here, I'm just curious of the reasoning why the big mid cut and then return of it in the next "3" series. I'm sure good ears are involved with the networks changes even though math seems to be the law in the newer designs. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Schu Posted August 30, 2016 Author Share Posted August 30, 2016 Thru this entire thread I have insisted that neither the al4 or the AA was better... My contention is that they ar merely different (markedly so)... but that seems to have gotten lost in the bickering and sophomoric slinging. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chris A Posted August 30, 2016 Share Posted August 30, 2016 Did you think about the possibility of changes in at least the performance of supplier's drivers over time as a root cause for crossover changes: http://www.critesspeakers.com/klipsch_midrange.html To talk about passive crossover network implementations over time while assuming that nothing else in the world changed seems to be the root of many arguments. All you have to do is run one sweep on each version of Klipsch loudspeaker model to get good answers for your questions. It doesn't take much time or money to do so nowadays [about $100 for a microphone and 30 minutes of your time]. Chris Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marvel Posted August 30, 2016 Share Posted August 30, 2016 You couldn't write a soap opera like this if you tried... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mark1101 Posted August 30, 2016 Share Posted August 30, 2016 If you change the caps in the network...............you might NOT have a Klipsch speaker anymore. If you change the horns..............you might NOT have a Klipsch speaker anymore. If you change the drivers.............you might NOT have a Klipsch speaker anymore. If you drill holes in your K402s to try and make a Danley..........you might NOT have a Klipsch speaker anymore. If you put a plant on top of it and it leaves a water stain..........you might NOT have a Klipsch speaker anymore. If you move it from the corner..............you might NOT have a Klipsch speaker anymore. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
richieb Posted August 30, 2016 Share Posted August 30, 2016 1 hour ago, Schu said: Thru this entire thread I have insisted that neither the al4 or the AA was better... My contention is that they ar merely different (markedly so)... but that seems to have gotten lost in the bickering and sophomoric slinging. How true with so many threads that have an innocent beginning, asking for thoughtful input and soon thereafter the shitt slinging begins. You may recall I started a thread on the virtues, or not, of VRD amps. That was closed down after someone's intelligent remark of bending someone's daughter over. Shu - are you really surprised? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Deang Posted August 30, 2016 Share Posted August 30, 2016 1 hour ago, Chris A said: Did you think about the possibility of changes in at least the performance of supplier's drivers over time as a root cause for crossover changes ... The AK-2 and AK-3 both support the same driver (K-55-M). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jwc Posted August 30, 2016 Share Posted August 30, 2016 9 minutes ago, mark1101 said: If you change the caps in the network...............you might NOT have a Klipsch speaker anymore. If you change the horns..............you might NOT have a Klipsch speaker anymore. If you change the drivers.............you might NOT have a Klipsch speaker anymore. If you drill holes in your K402s to try and make a Danley..........you might NOT have a Klipsch speaker anymore. If you put a plant on top of it and it leaves a water stain..........you might NOT have a Klipsch speaker anymore. If you move it from the corner..............you might NOT have a Klipsch speaker anymore. If you change out the stainless steel screws on the crossover board to brass screws...... If you put dynamat around the metal horn...... If you put braces on your la scala bins.... .... ..... ..... If you change the crossover to single components for -6dB rolloff to justify the passionate smear of drivers......you may have a sexy blur of sound coming at you. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Deang Posted August 30, 2016 Share Posted August 30, 2016 I want to see an acoustic plot that shows the 6dB/octave roll off. Not the ideal network if you listen at earbleed levels, not because of "overlap", but because of the higher output delivered near the Fc. Btw, the Universal is 12dB/octave between the midrange and the tweeter, and many still prefer 6dB down, in fact, Al sends them out that way - even the ESNs are sent out that way. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Deang Posted August 30, 2016 Share Posted August 30, 2016 I resent the "magic" statements. Since no one here has said anything about "magic" except the detractors, it's a straw man argument. Everyone knows that the math, models, and measurements are critical to good performance - we're only saying that there is a strong subjective element to all of this - and so something that measures "best", may not sound "best" to everyone that hears it - and not everyone wants an extra piece of equipment between them and the source. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dBspl Posted August 30, 2016 Share Posted August 30, 2016 3 hours ago, Max2 said: Why did Klipsch cut the mid output 3db or so with the AK-2? Was the AL-2 and AB-2 done the same way? It seemed the 3 series brought the mid output back to the normal levels. Does anyone have any info on why this came about? I was involved with the move to the AK-3 network. Of course that was a very long time ago, and I'm sure I don't remember all the facts. I had only started with the company in 1986, so it was never perfectly clear to me the events leading up to the AK-3 network change. So my comments may only add to the confusion. My recollection is that when the AK-2 was introduced, it was accompanied with a K-55 driver change. I want to say we changed suppliers, but I'm not positive. Again, this all happened before me, but my understanding was that when the new K-55 engineering samples were measured they were about 1.5 to 2 dB hotter than the old K-55. When the AK-2 network was designed, it was based around these hotter drivers (resulting in more attenuation in the mid-range network). This is what was implemented into production. However, at some point down the line (and I don't know when), it was realized that production drivers where not as sensitive as those original engineering samples. This must have been around the time I started because I do recall there was growing concern over a period of time that something needed to be done to correct it. At some point I was asked to take a look at it, and also work with Hunter and John Allen to confirm any changes. This resulted in the AK-3. Well, if nothing else, it's something else to chew on... Kerry 6 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Max2 Posted August 30, 2016 Share Posted August 30, 2016 3 minutes ago, dBspl said: I was involved with the move to the AK-3 network. Of course that was a very long time ago, and I'm sure I don't remember all the facts. I had only started with the company in 1986, so it was never perfectly clear to me the events leading up to the AK-3 network change. So my comments may only add to the confusion. My recollection is that when the AK-2 was introduced, it was accompanied with a K-55 driver change. I want to say we changed suppliers, but I'm not positive. Again, this all happened before me, but my understanding was that when the new K-55 engineering samples were measured they were about 1.5 to 2 dB hotter than the old K-55. When the AK-2 network was designed, it was based around these hotter drivers (resulting in more attenuation in the mid-range network). This is what was implemented into production. However, at some point down the line (and I don't know when), it was realized that production drivers where not as sensitive as those original engineering samples. This must have been around the time I started because I do recall there was growing concern over a period of time that something needed to be done to correct it. At some point I was asked to take a look at it, and also work with Hunter and John Allen to confirm any changes. This resulted in the AK-3. Well, if nothing else, it's something else to chew on... Kerry Thanks for chipping in on the info Kerry. Very neat that you had a hand in all of that. I was always under the impression that Klipsch was going after a less pronounced mid or possible to flatten things a bit. I don't know how long the 2 series was in production, 6 or more years? 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Coytee Posted August 30, 2016 Share Posted August 30, 2016 2 hours ago, Max2 said: Thanks for chipping in on the info Kerry. I say tar & feather him, then....off with his head!! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Max2 Posted August 30, 2016 Share Posted August 30, 2016 44 minutes ago, Coytee said: I say tar & feather him, then....off with his head!! No, no! DBspl was involved producing the 3 series, which don't sound that bad ! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dBspl Posted August 31, 2016 Share Posted August 31, 2016 4 hours ago, Max2 said: I was always under the impression that Klipsch was going after a less pronounced mid or possible to flatten things a bit. While I guess that is possible, I don't believe that was the case. It also doesn't seem logical that you would attenuate the mid-range 1.5 to 2 dB and leave everything else alone. However, I also never really understood how a deviation of 1.5 to 2 dB over the entire pass-band of the K-55 driver could happen. That's going beyond normal production tolerances. I would have to look, but I seem to recall the changes from the AK-2 to AK-3 were relatively modest value changes. Kerry Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Klipsch Employees Chief bonehead Posted August 31, 2016 Klipsch Employees Share Posted August 31, 2016 4 hours ago, dBspl said: While I guess that is possible, I don't believe that was the case. It also doesn't seem logical that you would attenuate the mid-range 1.5 to 2 dB and leave everything else alone. However, I also never really understood how a deviation of 1.5 to 2 dB over the entire pass-band of the K-55 driver could happen. That's going beyond normal production tolerances. I would have to look, but I seem to recall the changes from the AK-2 to AK-3 were relatively modest value changes. Kerry But it was "magic" right Kerry? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Klipsch Employees Chief bonehead Posted August 31, 2016 Klipsch Employees Share Posted August 31, 2016 10 hours ago, mark1101 said: If you change the caps in the network...............you might NOT have a Klipsch speaker anymore. If you change the horns..............you might NOT have a Klipsch speaker anymore. If you change the drivers.............you might NOT have a Klipsch speaker anymore. If you drill holes in your K402s to try and make a Danley..........you might NOT have a Klipsch speaker anymore. If you put a plant on top of it and it leaves a water stain..........you might NOT have a Klipsch speaker anymore. If you move it from the corner..............you might NOT have a Klipsch speaker anymore. If you screw up a klipsch speaker....you might have a Bose and "magic". 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Klipsch Employees Chief bonehead Posted August 31, 2016 Klipsch Employees Share Posted August 31, 2016 9 hours ago, Deang said: I resent the "magic" statements. Since no one here has said anything about "magic" except the detractors, it's a straw man argument. Everyone knows that the math, models, and measurements are critical to good performance - we're only saying that there is a strong subjective element to all of this - and so something that measures "best", may not sound "best" to everyone that hears it - and not everyone wants an extra piece of equipment between them and the source. Magic? Burn the strawman!! 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wvu80 Posted August 31, 2016 Share Posted August 31, 2016 On 8/29/2016 at 10:09 AM, mustang guy said: I would really like to A/B an in-spec AA LaScala with a brand new LaScala II. I would like to know what I am missing, if anything. As Dave can attest, I am a bit OCD with stuff like this, so if I no longer have the ignorance of that comparison, it might drive me crazy. OCD, confirmed! But that's not what surprised me, it's the speed at which you practice your OCD. Really, it's a cut above, clearly expert level. It's a joy to behold. And while we're on the subject, I too would like to hear that in-spec AA La Scala or AA Khorn in all its glory versus something 20 years old with "old caps." I've been thinking about that since Roy alluded to it. He makes a good point, and that point is burning deep into my OCD. It would be a real nightmare to get all those speakers into one place and then have to move all those giant speakers around. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dBspl Posted August 31, 2016 Share Posted August 31, 2016 5 hours ago, wvu80 said: It would be a real nightmare to get all those speakers into one place and then have to move all those giant speakers around. PWK use to say speaker design all boils down to moving furniture. If you've ever done it, you know the truth in that statement. Kerry 4 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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