Let's talk about bass - cont'd

[mustang guy]

Take poll then respond to @Rxonmymind here:

 

I have a pair of Belle's. Beautiful, sounds great etc. On many many post I hear how this Klipsch or that Klipsch model lacks bass which has me scratching my head. I recently hooked up my newly recapped & fully restored Sony STR 7055 to them and decided to play U2 Joshua tree CD. The CD player is appropriately a Sony dvp-s 770 0 model. The CD first pressings by Island "records". 
Third track "with or without you" the in opening riff I was floored. The rumble the bass took on was much like a home theater sub type dimension. This song doesn't have the boom, boom opening but one continuous type. I could easily feel the lower octaves vibrate through the sofa I was on. 
What I'm getting at I think bass is very music dependent and not every song will have it. Thank the music gods. That would be annoying. 
Now switching over to my stock Realistic 2100D that had not been recapped the bass was not as authoritative and didn't have a lot of rumble. Kinda mellow. This from a receiver putting out 125 watts per channel vs the Sony 35 watts. The Sony EASILY beat the Realistic in every category. I wonder if adding new crossovers will enhance the bass it even further? The change from stock Sony to a fully recapped one was pretty drastic and noticeable.
 

I'd like to read what speaker you have added a subwoofer too. 

 

 

[mustang guy]

Crossovers will not add bass, as the bass roll off is caused by woofer in it's enclosure.

 

I have a set of Heresy's I run without subs. I have LaScalas I run with subs. It really depends on the music and the venue for me. The best subs with Belle's and LaScalas are horn loaded subs. They tend to be much larger, but the sound is seamless to the fully horn loaded speakers they are mated to. Horn loaded subs have been discussed frequently in the Subwoofers sub-forum.

[Deang]

It seems that many don't know that all of these loudspeakers were designed to be placed into corners. For example, the LaScala has a 70Hz bass horn, and without reinforcement from the corner(s), it's going to sound pretty thin and very bright. In some good corners - you get a solid 45Hz. Plenty for most music - but movies will need a sub or two. 

[derrickdj1]

I will limit my comments on Klipsch Reference speakers.  In general the bass is great and dictated by several things, speaker size, distance to wall and associated gear.  Khorns, La scala's and Belle's behave slightly different in regards to placement.  Subs can be a nice addition but, many systems are fine without them depending on your listening preferences.

 

Getting the bass right can be a pain in the bum.  Placement of the monitors and the listener can take up considerable time.  The use of a sub can add to the music experience or take away from it depending on how well it is integrated.  Subs add more richness and even out the bass in the room for me.

[twk123]

LaScalas- It depends on the type of music for me. For things like classic rock or instrumental music I prefer the clean and cohesive sound on my LaScalas alone but if I am listening to newer Reggae music or electronic music a sub is definitely necessary. I can tell that my direct radiating sub is not as "Fast" as the bass horns of the 'Scalas and that can sometimes break the immersion of the music. I actually have my LaScalas set to "Small" on my AVR even if I am not running the sub as my Denon sets the crossover to 80hz and there is no point in sending a low signal to the amp when my speakers wont play it anyway.

 

KG 5.5- These laugh at any notion that i would need a subwoofer.

[derrickdj1]

3 minutes ago, twk123 said:

I can tell that my direct radiating sub is not as "Fast" as the bass horns of the 'Scalas and that can sometimes break the immersion of the music.

If you could delay the LaScala a ms or 1.5 ms, I think the problem between the direct radiator sub and LaSacla would improve.  I had a buddy with a horn sub and direct radiator speakers.  The speakers were ahead of the sub.  We delayed the speakers based of the horn length path and bam!  Things sounded much better.

[Rxonmymind]

5 hours ago, mustang guy said:

Crossovers will not add bass, as the bass roll off is caused by woofer in it's enclosure.

 

I have a set of Heresy's I run without subs. I have LaScalas I run with subs. It really depends on the music and the venue for me. The best subs with Belle's and LaScalas are horn loaded subs. They tend to be much larger, but the sound is seamless to the fully horn loaded speakers they are mated to. Horn loaded subs have been discussed frequently in the Subwoofers sub-forum.

Thanks for the clarification. So crossovers for speakers will only "tighten" up the signals given to it? 

[Rxonmymind]

5 hours ago, Deang said:

It seems that many don't know that all of these loudspeakers were designed to be placed into corners. For example, the LaScala has a 70Hz bass horn, and without reinforcement from the corner(s), it's going to sound pretty thin and very bright. In some good corners - you get a solid 45Hz. Plenty for most music - but movies will need a sub or two. 

But the Belle's don't need to be in a corner correct? Just away from the wall a bit?

[pzannucci]

For the most bass, Belles as well as La Scalas benefit from being in corners for their bass extension and overall balance becomes more correct.  Most of Klipsch speakers were built to be in a 1/8 space I believe - http://www.sweetwater.com/insync/1-8-space/

 

The issue with crossovers is that they can not extend the bass easily but they can increase the bass in reference to the rest of the speaker.  It's call baffle step compensation.  You will loose overall efficiency though balance the lower bass of the speaker. This is dependent on the baffle width of the speaker compared to the length of the wave generated.  Also lowering the resistance of the inductor also can be helpful.  That's one reason to not use air core inductors in the crossover.

[Schu]

I need me a born based sub... NEED.

[pzannucci]

22 minutes ago, Schu said:

I need me a born based sub... NEED.

Get your table saw out   Half the fun is the journey.

[mustang guy]

4 hours ago, Rxonmymind said:

Thanks for the clarification. So crossovers for speakers will only "tighten" up the signals given to it? 

No, a crossover is there to make each driver output the frequencies it is capable of. The high's to the tweeters, the lows to the woofer and everything in between to the midrange. 

[Rxonmymind]

3 hours ago, mustang guy said:

No, a crossover is there to make each driver output the frequencies it is capable of. The high's to the tweeters, the lows to the woofer and everything in between to the midrange. 

That's what I meant so the signals aren't "sloppy" & over lapping bleeding into each other. 

Thanks

[pzannucci]

3 hours ago, Rxonmymind said:

That's what I meant so the signals aren't "sloppy" & over lapping bleeding into each other. 

Thanks

Outside the scope of bass and hopefully not a thread hijack (maybe another thread should be created) but:

The actual crossover portion of the electronics in a speaker (outside of the baffle step I mentioned earlier) are going to semi divide up the frequencies to the drivers that can best handle them.  Lows = woofer mids = midrange and tweeter = highs.  Each driver will have an acoustic roll off to the next defined by it's electrical crossover and it's natural frequency range.  There is signal overlap in typical crossovers and depending on the order and type, that overlap can be large or small (perhaps your sloppy question).  Some people condone high order to keep driver overlap to a minimum but affects phase more and other simple 6db which can in a proper design maintain better phase relationships between the drivers but affords less protection and ability to keep the driver in it's happy zone.

My opinion is that a crossover in a good design will do at least three things:

1. allow the majority of electrical signals to pass in the optimal range for each of the drivers

2. have a roll off that will allow the driver to not be damaged easily by the input signal

3. have a roll off that will blend the combined two driver outputs that have an overlap to allow for the most pleasing sound, on axis output, phase relationships, and protection for the drivers.

4. Equalization <<<=== one of the areas where the perception of how the bass can sound comes in

5. Phase compensation in relation to driver offsets

6. Impedance management

 

Crossovers are a science and can make inexpensive drivers sound good or can make good drivers sound terrible.  Crossover design is also an art because of all the different parameters that are involved and interact with the design.  It may be electrically pleasing for the drivers but sound absolutely terrible.

[JJkizak]

I go along with the old loudness control concept for different SPL levels of bass. Denon just relabeled it in there stuff to "Restore" if I remember correctly which is hard to do anymore because they have so much stuff on their AVR's.

JJK

[Rxonmymind]

Oh and thanks all for taking part in the poll. I have no idea how I created a poll and not allowed people to participate.

Thanks to the mods for creating a new thread. 

[onemoretime]

23 hours ago, Deang said:

It seems that many don't know that all of these loudspeakers were designed to be placed into corners. For example, the LaScala has a 70Hz bass horn, and without reinforcement from the corner(s), it's going to sound pretty thin and very bright. In some good corners - you get a solid 45Hz. Plenty for most music - but movies will need a sub or two. 

I thought LaScala's in HT are often placed front facing with minimal toe-in. But is that because subs are doing more of the low-end work?

[tromprof]

I have added subs to both La Scalas and K-horns (horn subs).  Both speakers have very well defined bass cutoff points and if you listen to material that has bass below that  cutoff (aprox. 50 HZ  for the La Scala  and 35 HZ for the K-horn) you will be missing part of the music. Both speakers have wonderfully full bass up to that cutoff, but don't be confused about the physical limitations of horns.  The longer the horn, the lower it goes. No crossover changes that fundamental principle. 

[jason str]

23 hours ago, derrickdj1 said:

If you could delay the LaScala a ms or 1.5 ms, I think the problem between the direct radiator sub and LaSacla would improve.  I had a buddy with a horn sub and direct radiator speakers.  The speakers were ahead of the sub.  We delayed the speakers based of the horn length path and bam!  Things sounded much better.

 

If that were the case tapped horns would not work.

 

Not going to make any difference unless you are crossing over too high.

 

 

[Chris A]

5 minutes ago, jason str said:

If that were the case tapped horns would not work...Not going to make any difference unless you are crossing over too high.

Having used 21-feet path length tapped horn subs for the past 7 years in close proximity to the Jubs, I can say that their precursor pulse (the first sounds from the subs that correspond to the sides of the woofers closest to the mouth of the subs) isn't what I set my delays to match on the Jubs. I cross over at 40 Hz using 24 dB/octave LR from the subs to the Jubs. I use the full 21-feet path length differential from the Jubs bass bins' path length.  It makes a difference in my listening environment, I've found.

 

I actually put my subs behind my Jubs, with the generated "mouth" of the subs exiting the back of the Jub  bass bin cabinets but aimed toward the ceiling, giving me an additional ~3-4 feet of sub path length.  I arrange it that way in order to mask that higher frequency precursor pulse generated from the tapped horns when reproducing impulsive music source material.  That higher order precursor pulse is mostly just driver-generated noise that needs to be attenuated.

 

However, one trick that Klipsch uses in at least the Cornwall 1.5 (1979 edition) is to match the phase at 360 degree points, even though the midrange horn/driver is significantly out of phase by multiples of 360 degrees.  If you do that (match phases at 360 degree point multiples) then the mismatch becomes less noticeable--the delay offset doesn't as significantly affect the polars between the bass bin-midrange horn/driver, and the midrange-tweeter under steady state conditions. 

 

Chris