CECAA850 Posted August 24, 2016 Author Share Posted August 24, 2016 4 minutes ago, pzannucci said: If you find a good $50 option for HDMI that provides very good sound, make sure you keep us in the loop. There isn't one that I can find. My solution is to find a way to stream WITHOUT using USB which is where I'm going with all this. I'll certainly report back. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CECAA850 Posted September 15, 2016 Author Share Posted September 15, 2016 Update: The first box I bought wouldn't extract 2 audio from HDMI unless there was a HDMI device on BOTH ends to handshake. I have a laptop on one end and a DAC on the other so no handshake there. After talking with a tech rep at Monoprice (who was great by the way) I ordered a device (extractor as opposed to a switcher) that should extract the audio from HDMI without looking for another HDMI device on the output side. It came in yesterday and I hope to try it this weekend. Monoprice took my first box back no questions asked. They're great to deal with. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thaddeus Smith Posted September 15, 2016 Share Posted September 15, 2016 2-channel dac is always USB for me. The only time I use HDMI as a DAC connectivity method is via my HTPC out through the AVR (currently onkyo tx-nr1010). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CECAA850 Posted September 15, 2016 Author Share Posted September 15, 2016 7 minutes ago, Thaddeus Smith said: 2-channel dac is always USB for me. The only time I use HDMI as a DAC connectivity method is via my HTPC out through the AVR (currently onkyo tx-nr1010). What I've found is that if you have an asynchronous DAC, that's not a bad solution for USB but I don't. If this works like I hope, it won't be a bad 40-50 dollar upgrade. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CECAA850 Posted September 15, 2016 Author Share Posted September 15, 2016 A good ARTICLE explaining the different types of USB transfer. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TasDom Posted September 15, 2016 Share Posted September 15, 2016 6 hours ago, CECAA850 said: Monoprice took my first box back no questions asked. They're great to deal with. Not to go off track but this is so true. My projector has had a handshake issue since day 1. I thought it was just the 40 ft length of the HDMI Redmere cable but when I tested it with a shorter (non Redmere) cable it took a signal instantly. After talking to the MP tech for a recommendation, he suggested one of their least expensive cables and sent me a RMA label to get a credit. This after almost 3 years of use. The PJ now comes on instantly when switching sources..... good job Monoprice! Good luck with the streaming issue Carl Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CECAA850 Posted September 15, 2016 Author Share Posted September 15, 2016 3 minutes ago, Tasdom said: Good luck with the streaming issue Carl Thanks. I have a new bottle of bourbon I'm dying to try out but I'm not opening it till I get this up and running and can listen to it for an extended time. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CECAA850 Posted September 18, 2016 Author Share Posted September 18, 2016 Well, I haven't had the bourbon listening experience (it's 9:20 Sunday AM and I just got it up and running) but this experiment was an unequivocal success. If you're using a DAC that is not asynchronous and streaming via usb, this is a no brainer, cheap upgrade. In the very short listening session this morning, I noticed several very noticeable improvements. The first song I played made me walk over to my sub and check to see if I had accidentally left it on the last time I used it. There's so much more bass coming out of the L and R channels now. It's not even close. Cymbals are much clearer now and again, that's not really close either. The veil has been lifted off the mids but they seem much more forward now. It may have been my small sampling so we'll have to see on that. Overall, there's much more clarity from top to bottom using HDMi and an extractor vs plain old usb. LPCM sounded better than bitstream in the short time I listened as well. Thanks to Tom (quiethollow) for pushing me in this direction and answering my questions. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chris A Posted September 18, 2016 Share Posted September 18, 2016 1 hour ago, CECAA850 said: Thanks to Tom (quiethollow) for pushing me in this direction and answering my questions. The combined effects of USB power supply noise + the issues of how the data buffers operate at the DAC end of the chain (without handshake) are designed-in limitations of the USB standard. BTW: in order for jitter to be audible, it has to be at the 100s of a nanosecond level, as bad as 150 microseconds before all human ears can detect the problems. That's a huge amount of effective digital jitter. The subjective effects of digital jitter/truncation of data words is directly analogous to frequency modulation (FM) distortion audibility in loudspeakers. PWK wrote a good set of articles in the late 1960s on that subject (amplitude and frequency modulation distortion: AMD and FMD). He got the audibility of MD right, while Allison and Villchur definitely got the FMD audibility wrong about 8 years later. It is this distortion type which is the major difference in distortion heard between direct radiating loudspeakers and well-designed horn-loaded ones. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Dude Posted September 18, 2016 Share Posted September 18, 2016 On 9/15/2016 at 10:27 AM, Thaddeus Smith said: 2-channel dac is always USB for me. The only time I use HDMI as a DAC connectivity method is via my HTPC out through the AVR (currently onkyo tx-nr1010). Last night I want to say I noticed a difference between the two. I normally sit about 26'-30' back from my system. laptop-usb out to Schiit Modi 1-rca to analog input of my Integra DTR 40.2. Last night I went display port-hdmi adapter-hdmi to hdmi input on the Integra, sitting about 11'-12' back. Granit I was closer but the bass seemed more pronounced/dynamic or whatever you would call. I thought the whole sound, sounded more dynamic. If I had a longer hdmi cable, I would try it from my normal listening position, to see if I notice a difference. @CECAA850, you may have mentioned. But could you explain how everything is connected? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CECAA850 Posted September 18, 2016 Author Share Posted September 18, 2016 17 minutes ago, The Dude said: But could you explain how everything is connected? I use an HDMI cable from the laptop to the Monoprice "extractor". The output of the extractor is hooked up to the DAC using an optical (Toslink) cable. From the DAC to my preamp is analog RCA cables. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CECAA850 Posted September 18, 2016 Author Share Posted September 18, 2016 31 minutes ago, Chris A said: The combined effects of USB power supply noise + the issues of how the data buffers operate at the DAC end of the chain (without handshake) are designed-in limitations of the USB standard. I've heard that and now I've heard that. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CECAA850 Posted September 18, 2016 Author Share Posted September 18, 2016 I honestly can't say if it was power supply noise or the buffering that I was hearing before but whatever it was, it's gone now and the whole system sounds much better. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chris A Posted September 18, 2016 Share Posted September 18, 2016 I've learned my lesson on analog and digital data buses. About 8 years ago, I had an issue with a particular CD (Dave Grusin's Now Playing: Movie Themes...solo piano only) on an Oppo DV-980H player using analog RCA output that drove me nuts for months, until I changed from analog RCA to digital S/PDIF TOSLINK (optical). The problem with that CD disappeared. It turns out that the Oppo DV-980H analog output ports were distorting on full-scale peaks, and this is most audible during solo piano performances. When I finally provided an alternative via a Sony PS3 (HDMI), I found that the sound quality went up again. It shouldn't have...but it did. When I finally retired the DV-980H in favor of an Oppo BDP-103 (HDMI) plus an Onkyo using HDMI (instead of the old Outlaw Audio using DVI ports) the SQ went up again. There was no explanation except that the Oppo was converting native binary streams to PCM without honoring its command to not do that. It shouldn't have, but it did. I now use the BDP-103 without the video enhancement "HDMI 1" port, but rather the non-enhanced "HDMI 2" port--so I can play my SACDs in native mode for all my audio. Video disc SQ is excellent. The fine print in the BDP-103 manual states that it will convert all non-PCM (i.e., DSD from SACD) streams to PCM when using the "enhanced video" HDMI-1 port. It shouldn't, but it does... This all has been a really odd learning experience that I believe that others can avoid. Until a successor to USB is chosen for digital audio that doesn't have the same clocking/lack of handshaking issue as S/PDIF (including TOSLINK), I'd recommend staying with HDMI. I know a some people hate it (due probably in no small part to DRM-induced handshake issues and re-connection delays...sometimes measured in minutes, reportedly) but I seem to have escaped all problems of that sort. Chris 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dawson's Ridge Posted September 18, 2016 Share Posted September 18, 2016 1 hour ago, Chris A said: He got the audibility of MD right Chris, I notice that the author recommends a 500Hz x/o point between bass and MF which is what is used in the P-37F. Also, Nelson Pass says that Intermodulation Distortion (IMD) is the real problem. How does than correlate with Klipsch's findings on Modulation Distortion (FM and AM)? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CECAA850 Posted September 18, 2016 Author Share Posted September 18, 2016 The box I'm using doesn't need an hdmi handshake on the output side which is perfect in my application. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chris A Posted September 18, 2016 Share Posted September 18, 2016 26 minutes ago, Dawson's Ridge said: How does that correlate with Klipsch's findings on Modulation Distortion (FM and AM)? IMD is modulation distortion. In loudspeakers there are two sources of modulation distortion: FM and AM. FM is dominant at frequencies above ~200 Hz, while AM distortion is the major modulation distortion source below that frequency. PWK was reporting on both AMD and FMD lumped together, while Nelson Pass was basically referring to the amplifier phenomenon known as "harmonic distortion turning directly into modulation distortion". Note that digital jitter emerges as sounding just like modulation distortion since it too produces FMD-like sidebands on the higher frequencies. All of these sources make the sound opaque, muddy and "wooly", and at the same levels of distortion since they both emerge from loudspeakers or headphones as modulation distortion sidebands on all upper frequencies. According to everything that I've seen on the subject--there is no difference, and both NP and PWK are right. Allison and Villchur aren't. Note that it's the "higher-order" side bands (2f, 3f, etc.) that are most objectionable in terms of audibility. The lower sidebands on the output are the most audible over the higher sidebands. Both of these effects on audibility are due to the phenomenon of human hearing known as "masking". Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SWL Posted September 18, 2016 Share Posted September 18, 2016 Carl, thanks for posting this. As happy as I am with my current setup I may give this a try since everything lines up similar to what you've got going on and we have the same DAC. Sent from my SM-G920R4 using Tapatalk Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CECAA850 Posted September 18, 2016 Author Share Posted September 18, 2016 7 minutes ago, SWL said: Carl, thanks for posting this. As happy as I am with my current setup I may give this a try since everything lines up similar to what you've got going on and we have the same DAC. Sent from my SM-G920R4 using Tapatalk I had planned on contacting you about your opamps but after hearing this I'll probably wait a bit. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chris A Posted September 18, 2016 Share Posted September 18, 2016 By the way, you don't want to know about phonograph cartridge modulation distortion levels: it will make your hair fall out when you see the magnitude of those sidebands and the wide frequency spacing of them from the modulated frequencies from test records. Phonographs rely on human hearing masking to sound good. If you're playing deep bass and a higher frequency solo instrument above it, the sound really falls apart. A ride cymbal or high hat being playing on top of a walking bass line is one of the most audible examples of that. Almost all analog recordings can be immediately identified by listening to the cymbals. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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