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51 minutes ago, Deang said:

Just saw your edit. You're referencing your original Belle thread - why didn't you just post a link to it in the AA thread instead of starting a new thread?

After reading through this thread it is my opinion that it stands on its own merits.  Not sure what the issue is here, but I am seeing some "negative" behavior here. Completely uncalled for and not acceptable. 

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I have not violated the TOS in any way whatsoever - no insults, no personal attacks, etc. - I'm allowed to have my own opinions and to disagree if I want. 

 

He accuses me of "arguing from ignorance", and you come down on me?

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Then what's the problem? It's simply not possible to disagree with someone without a bit of a negative connotation attached to it - it goes with the territory. 

 

There is nothing going on here that requires intervention by a moderator. 

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  • Klipsch Employees
On 8/27/2016 at 4:46 PM, Chris A said:

Note that most of the 300-500 Hz dip in response was due to my poor choice of crossing filters and their frequencies, PEQs, and shelving filters...and not really the position of the ports.  I was kind of in a hurry when I ran those settings, and I haven't run a sweep since updating the Dx38 settings in that area.  I expect to see that gap closed currently...but I need a round tuit first to run another sweep.

 

It sounds pretty good right now.

 

When do I get to see your "secret vault"?  I've shown you mine... :D

not much i can show you unfortunately but i can try to answer as much as i can.

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  • Klipsch Employees
7 hours ago, sunnysal said:

I have posted before about my DEQX based system and how I ended up going back to a analog crossover system.  From the scientific standpoint I would never claim it is not possible to improve the performance of a system via these types of manipulation in the digital domain.  However, in my case, the added complexity didn't add up to enough value to keep all that equipment in my system.  I often mention the difference i discovered between system "performance" and music "reproduction". For me I had better results, for music listening, with my dumbed down system than I did with all the bells and whistles connected.  I still wonder about implementing a steeper analog crossover but I have been cured of chasing an improvement in musical enjoyment via digital manipulation in my system. To each his own, your mileage may vary, etc., etc.. Warm regards, from sunny El Salvador, Tony

to me, performance AND reproduction have to be one and the same......

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  • Klipsch Employees
4 hours ago, Deang said:

"One of the conversations in another thread discussing AA networks, I commented on the observation that if you carefully re-equalize your loudspeakers ... that you can't tell the difference in sound from before the parts change." - specifically capacitor types. 

 

I don't see anything in this thread that validates the above statement, which I thought was the point of the new thread. 

 

Since capacitors with very similar ESR numbers sound completely different from one another - I'm rejecting the premise.

 

Compare a Type A built with Sonicap (a very good measuring capacitor) to the same network built with Auricap, and then again with AudioCap Theta. While that network only has two capacitors - the sound changes.

amplitude adjusted right?

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  • Klipsch Employees
4 hours ago, Deang said:

The output of the driver/horn falls like the proverbial rock at 5.8kHz, and when combined with the first order electrical filter - falls even faster - the acoustic behavior is not first order. 

 

 

image.gif

this is like first grade acoustics...what are the polars doing 50cent?

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3 hours ago, Deang said:

You were the one who made the claim, so why is the burden on me? Please show how two passives built with different parts can be equalized to sound the same. 

 

Personal issues? I'm not building right now because I'm in pain, that doesn't mean I'm not lucid. I have no issues with you.

first grade network building....ADJUST THE VALUES OF THE CAPS!!  lol!

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32 minutes ago, Chief bonehead said:

first grade network building....ADJUST THE VALUES OF THE CAPS!!  lol!

If I have two 2uF capacitors with near equal ESR, how does changing the capacitance do anything except increase summing error?

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37 minutes ago, Chief bonehead said:

this is like first grade acoustics...what are the polars doing 50cent?

They are collapsing. 

 

Chris mentioned a couple of issues with first order networks. You add a first order network to what that plot shows, and you're not getting a first order acoustic response - that's all I'm saying. People envision this great overlap - but it's not there. 

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On 8/28/2016 at 7:41 PM, Deang said:

If I have two 2uF capacitors with near equal ESR, how does changing the capacitance do anything except increase summing error?

One more time....all a driver cares about is how much voltage is delivered to it. If the amplitude is higher then the spl changes. 

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1 hour ago, Deang said:

They are collapsing. 

 

Chris mentioned a couple of issues with first order networks. You add a first order network to what that plot shows, and you're not getting a first order acoustic response - that's all I'm saying. People envision this great overlap - but it's not there. 

Not really. If a driver is seeing 200 hz and is flapping in the wind at 400 it will affect the sound. And the overlap is wider than you think. 

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2 hours ago, Chief bonehead said:

not much i can show you unfortunately but i can try to answer as much as i can.

No worries there.  You've already shown me the important things, and those things aren't stowed away in closets gathering dust.

 

Chris

 

 

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On 8/27/2016 at 10:21 AM, Chris A said:

 

The real need is for the parametric equalization filters and shelving EQ filters.   This is one instance that separating the woofer channel from the HF channel (bi-amping) is a smart thing to do since the effective sensitivity of the two channels are significantly different in order to achieve flat response.  [Danley uses gobs of attenuation on their HF drivers relative to the woofers for flat response, and that is why they're rated in the mid-90s (dB) in terms of sensitivity.] It's actually 100 db on the SH-50, which is still their flagship reference product for those bold enough to use at home instead of in a church or stadium.

 

So to answer your question: I think it would be an interesting exercise to design passives that approximate what Danley's passive crossovers do since time delay isn't needed for this horn configuration.   This work is definitely secondary on my list of things to do, however. 

 

I suppose that someone else that likes to design passive balancing networks with passive PEQ and shelving filters might like the challenge themselves.  Try LSP CAD for Xover design. As a post passive Xover tweak, Tom Danley does all his measurements outdoors and uses RePhase on a Mini DSP room correction box (icing on a well baked cake) while averaging 3 points close together with emphasis below 1 Khz..I wouldn't think it would be difficult to reverse engineer a Danley Synergy crossover (assuming access to a Danley Synergy loudspeaker is available I may draw a schematic soon FOI) but this is one area where Tom Danley himself is quite evasive in design details--never actually describing them Does a chef reveal all the ingredients in his secret sauce?.  I think that he views his "trade secret" IP as the crossover design itself, which isn't described in the current Danley Sound Labs patent (US 8,284,976 B2). LSP CAD is about $800.

 

A garden-variety active digital crossover with good PEQ/shelf filter capabilities is more than sufficient, however.  Yes, it would seem to be. I plan to use the Yamaha SP2060 first for the corner horns, and a EV Dx38 for the surrounds. Got two of those Yamahas. Let the games begin!!

 

Chris

 

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On 8/27/2016 at 10:21 AM, Chris A said:

 

A garden-variety active digital crossover with good PEQ/shelf filter capabilities is more than sufficient, however. 

BTW, I forgot to say that Tom Danley said he wasn't very advanced in Xover design when he did the original TD-1. The present day  PORTED Synergy horns have extra holes vs. the original SEALED design of the Sound Physics Labs horn in your illustration (used to own 20 of those, down to only 10).

 

The network in the SH-50 is extremely complex and shows how far Tom has evolved in Xover design. The same 4 mid drivers are used, as in the original 16 years ago, but with updated compression tweeter and woofer drivers (BMS and Faital Pro). All his bigger stuff uses active, but he has a preference for passive on the smaller stuff he listens to at home (relatively speaking). The bass in an SH-50 is amazingly good, and one could live with just those two boxes without subs (which Tom is doing currently as his TH-50's are still in Illinois), since they easily get to 40 Hz. in a real room, instead of outdoors, where all the Danley products are measured.

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I plan on using Roy's setting for my K-402's and TAD drivers. Working on an Four-15"-driver open baffle bass section to take the place of a Jubilee bass bin, which is the closest thing I have heard to horn bass yet per a friend's design. We shall see. Bass is a bear. Difficult and expensive for sure.

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