Questions about biamping my new Palladium 37F's with a 7.1 receiver

[ozolius 5]

I just bought Palladium 37F's and jumped them into a system that had a pair of RF7's. I've been biamping the speakers by utilizing the unused rear effect amp, same as I did with the RF7's.  I'm worried that I'm underpowering the Palladiums. I have an Arcam380 AVR, 90W x 2 channels, 75W x 7 channels. With the RF7's being 8ohms and the Palladiums being 4ohms, do I run the risk of frying the receiver or worse the speakers. I've tried to read some technical threads and articles about the 4ohm/8ohm discrepancy but get lost in the jargon. Can I preamp out just the low frequency channel to a separate amp. (I have an old Hafler XL600 I could utilize for this purpose.) I'm not looking to spend any $ at this time on equipment upgrades, I didn't even want to spend the money on the speakers but at the discounted price I pulled the trigger. Any advice would be great. BTW, the sound improvement between the RF7's and the Palladiums is dramatic.

[willland 2576]

Ozolius,

 

Welcome to the forum.

 

Though I have very little experience with "bi-amping" with an AVR's unused channels, most that I have read that tried it did not experience any noticeable improvements.  If fear of not supplying enough grunt to your Palladiums is concerning, I personally would use the front/stereo preouts and add a quality outboard amp to drive your P37F's.  That Hafler you have, as long as it is in good working condition, would drive the P37F's with ease.  

 

Where are you located?

 

Bill

[pzannucci 695]

It is likely that bi-amping won't hurt the Arcam.  Since the crossover will make the impedance go up outside of the crossed over frequency area, there shouldn't be significant load on the amps through the same frequency range.  The lower impedance that usually is painful on the amps are when you are pushing bass (which usually has an ugly load) thought the speakers.  Crossing at (I believe 600 or 650hz) shouldn't present a bad load on the receiver..

[ozolius 5]

Thank you both for your responses. I'm from New Jersey. I got Heresies in 1983, Cornwalls in 1988 and the RF7 II's (which I never really liked) in 2010ish. Also got the 8" woofer outdoor speakers on closeout when they were being discontinued, just like the Palladiums, half price. Sold the original Heresy's but wound up buying a used pair with cane grills like yours Willland to aim at my head when I play drums (with hearing protection of course!) Also Willland, I talked my wife into putting the RF7's in the master bedroom and I showed her your set up listed in your thread to back me up, I said to her, "See, I'm not the only idiot out there".

[willland 2576]

45 minutes ago, ozolius said:

Also Willland, I talked my wife into putting the RF7's in the master bedroom and I showed her your set up listed in your thread to back me up, I said to her, "See, I'm not the only idiot out there".

I will take that as a compliment.

 

See, you can't even see the HII's on the dresser since they blend in so well.

 

Bill

 

 

[ozolius 5]

Haha! I don't think she'd sign off on that!! Maybe only if we put spiked feet on the RF7"s! How do you link pics on here, I tried to link one with my iphoto and it's too much data 2MB?

Thanks for the laugh,

Rick

[ozolius 5]

On a more serious note, I've heard that biwiring from a single output may not improve sound but I am truly biamping with my current set up and it sounds great! If I preout to the Hafler, which runs and looks new btw,  I will be connecting the biwiring terminals on the back of the Palladiums with the included gold plate and will not be biamped. I will try it and see if I hear any difference positive or negative. Right now it sounds really good, punchy like all Klipsch but really airy midrange which I thought was missing from the two way RF7's. They all sound good loud which worried me with 7" woofers. I've got a 15" Klipsch sub with them. Best sounding Klipsch I've heard without a doubt, thank God because I bought them without listening to them!! That said, if I want more punch the Cornwalls with an 18" sub in the basement are the better choice.

 

[derrickdj1 8228]

Bi-amping with a passive crossover does two things, it send the same full range single to the Hi and Lo frequency driver.  The passive XO will discard all frequencies no intended for the driver.  They are lost forever.  The advantage of ture bi-amping is that better time alignment and shaping of the XO can be done between the Hi and Lo frequency drivers.

 

Bi-wiring accomplishes nothing unless the current wire is to small of a guage.  Now, passive bi-amping and bi-wiring look cool and impressive.What is pleasing to the eye can color the listening experience just as the decor.  I've done both and currently do neither.  No improvement for me after the placebo effect wore off.  It does not mean I won't do it again because nice interconnects look cool.

[Scrappydue 2101]

The palladiums should eat the Cornwalls up on sound quality. The Cornwalls have a punchier bass but p-37's are GREAT speakers. You should go for the full setup. The center and surrounds are actually more impressive than the towers. 

[ozolius 5]

Tried the Hafler and the sound quality went way down. Rehooked up just the Arcam and sound is amazing. I think I'll take my chances with the Arcam.  I am assuming using a separate amp for the HF and LF and having the sub handle everything from 60hz down will take some of the strain off the Arcam (I hope). The RF7's are in the master bedroom now  and I'll power them with the Hafler. Would love to buy the whole set up Scrappydue but daughter in college and son in private high school, glad I snuck the Palladiums past the wife!!

[pzannucci 695]

On 9/5/2016 at 10:26 PM, ozolius said:

Tried the Hafler and the sound quality went way down. Rehooked up just the Arcam and sound is amazing. I think I'll take my chances with the Arcam.  I am assuming using a separate amp for the HF and LF and having the sub handle everything from 60hz down will take some of the strain off the Arcam (I hope). The RF7's are in the master bedroom now  and I'll power them with the Hafler. Would love to buy the whole set up Scrappydue but daughter in college and son in private high school, glad I snuck the Palladiums past the wife!!

You'll do ok.  I hope your wife didn't sneak the jewelry past you   The p37fs probably appear as fine furniture so successful all the way around.

[mattSER 396]

On 9/4/2016 at 8:03 PM, Scrappydue said:

The palladiums should eat the Cornwalls up on sound quality. The Cornwalls have a punchier bass but p-37's are GREAT speakers. You should go for the full setup. The center and surrounds are actually more impressive than the towers. 

 

Do you have any experience with P17s or the larger towers?

 

Just wondering if the Palladium voicing is the same across the board, aside from the obvious size difference.

[A1UC 1069]

I'd take the sound of the Heresy's over the Palladiums any day for music , The Heresy's are my first heritage speaker and I'm really surprised


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[jjptkd 1269]

On ‎9‎/‎4‎/‎2016 at 6:55 PM, derrickdj1 said:

Now, passive bi-amping and bi-wiring look cool and impressive.What is pleasing to the eye can color the listening experience just as the decor.  I've done both and currently do neither.  No improvement for me after the placebo effect wore off.  It does not mean I won't do it again because nice interconnects look cool.

 

I'm currently passively bi-amping my RF-5's and RC-7 center speaker and use to bi-amp my Chorus II's. While I'll agree that I have not been able to clearly hear any audible improvement in sound quality what it does do is provide more power and head room.

 

In my old set up with the Chorus II's my Sunfire 200x5 amplifier would not drive them to full volume with only 2 channels, the speakers would get thin sounding and eventually start to distort around 80%? max output. Using 4 of the channels from the same amp and you could no longer turn it up all the way it would get so loud and stay crystal clear.

[Scrappydue 2101]

8 hours ago, mattSER said:

 

Do you have any experience with P17s or the larger towers?

 

Just wondering if the Palladium voicing is the same across the board, aside from the obvious size difference.

I owned the p-17, p-37, p-27 center and surrounds. Also own Cornwalls. The mid range on the palladiums, to me, was apparent SOON as I plugged them in over any reference stuff I had owned. The highs on the palladiums are also very detailed yet some of the smoothest I felt I had owned at the time. Now smooth isn't always for everyone or every type of music. Like A1UC said above he like heresys better for music. I do agree certain types of music probably sound more exciting on the heritage stuff cause it's a bit more up in your face. Everything about the palladiums is subtle. If you like the normal Klipsch up in your faceness then the palladiums aren't for you period, IMO of course. 

 

I had had a chat a while back with a guy who most would say have a very good ear and he said he had compared palladiums to his speakers which I believe were stock heritage with modified crossovers and he said palladiums sucked and were for people who didn't like real horn loaded stuff. 

 

Ive never heard the khorn. Heard the lascalas a couple times and never left impressed but thinking those were gear and setup related issues. Cornwalls heresy to me both have a good sound but different than reference stuff. Some excel at certain things while the other excels at the other stuff. That's why it's best to just own it all. Lol

[Chris A 2888]

On 9/3/2016 at 10:30 PM, ozolius said:

I'm worried that I'm underpowering the Palladiums. I have an Arcam380 AVR, 90W x 2 channels, 75W x 7 channels.

If you're actually dividing the HF from the LF drivers/passive crossovers from each other, then true bi-amping is providing some advantage (at least 3 dB in headroom, but a lot more clarity in the HF section).  If you're actually bi-amping, i.e., separating the HF crossover network and driver from the LF network and driver(s), then you can use whatever two amplifier topologies that you like.  You will enjoy the benefits of the freedom to mix-and-match amplifiers to loudspeaker drivers.  Too little power will not damage your loudspeakers, but it might sound poorer during loud (high SPL) passages.  It depends on whether or not you can hear the clipping that might occur, especially during high SPL low frequency transients, where the loudspeaker's efficiency is the lowest.

 

If you're not dividing the HF and LF sections of your passive crossovers (i.e., using a "bi-wire" set of terminals on the loudspeakers), then you're effectively strapping two amplifier channels together, and you'll get the same 3 dB of added headroom mentioned above, but no advantage in clarity of HF, in fact, it is probably a little less clear due to the strapped amplifier channels.  (This is also called "fool's biamping", BTW.) 

 

You'll also likely not see any issues with load impedance being too low, i.e., the fact that the loudspeaker input impedance falls below 8 ohms at some frequency band(s) isn't a real concern over using a single amplifier channel, if the amplifiers that you use aren't somehow coupled, and are independent amplifiers.

 

I don't recommend using two different amplifier types strapped together at the loudspeaker "bi-wire" terminals. It probably won't sound very good.  Separate those two channels on your passive crossovers and you'll hear the advantages. 

 

But note, if the passive crossovers are not designed for this separation, you may experience a change in the sound of the crossovers when you separate the HF from LF channels.  In that case, then I'd say the best you can do is single channel amplification for fidelity, and strapped amplification for 3 dB more power.

 

On 9/3/2016 at 10:30 PM, ozolius said:

BTW, the sound improvement between the RF7's and the Palladiums is dramatic.

No surprises there.

 

Chris

[mattSER 396]

5 hours ago, A1UC said:

I'd take the sound of the Heresy's over the Palladiums any day for music , The Heresy's are my first heritage speaker and I'm really surprised


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I'm the opposite. I've owned two pair of Heresy II, one pair Quartet, and two pair of Forte II. 

My little Palladiums are by far the best I've ever owned. Main things that impress and surprise me every day are the realism of voices and the amazing level of subtle details that come through.

I agree that they're a bit "less exciting", but the level of refinement is off the charts.

The only model I've owned that comes close to delivering the same realism in voices was my KLF-20's.