hcnelly Posted September 8, 2016 Share Posted September 8, 2016 Well, my klipsch belles are from 1979, and I've had them for over a year now, and they are my main speakers for two channel....i had Cornwall iiis before that, and while I loved them, they always sounded like a Heresy III speaker, in a bigger box, with better bass...they use the same midrange horn, and I always felt the cornwall III had an undersized midrange horn for such a large speaker, and it lacked detail, not only in movies, but in music on vinyl records as well...i honestly preferred my forte Is over the cornwall III in movies and music with that k53 horn....i feel the forte Is size is better suited and balanced for that particular midrange horn....needless to say, I sold my cornwalls iiis to get the belles and I kept the forte Is...i guess i was hoping it would be an upgrade for my listening tastes The Belles are definitely a different speaker (seriously more detailed and up-front)....i used my scott 340a and 299b, and I've never experienced as much listening fatigue with the cornwall III or forte I's as I do with these belles....i listen to rock, heavy metal, blues, etc....I'm looking at building a tuba horn loaded sub for the belles to get some lower bass later down the road..i recently upgraded the crossovers to type AA with Jupiter Caps from aletheia audio...it certainly made the sound smoother and way more detailed (they're awesome), but I still experience listening fatigue.... I listen to a lot of vinyl with the Belles, at just over 85db, and I swap between two turntables....my main turntable is a rega rp3, fitted with a dynavector 10X5 MC cartridge...it sounded incredibly detailed and rocked with the cornwall iiis...with the belles and its new crossovers, it's still too bright, yet exceptionally detailed....with my second turntable, it's my dad's Bang &Olufsen Beogram 4002, which uses a MM cartridge....i really like it as I don't experience the listening fatigue or harshness as bad, but it's definitely not as detailed as the dynavector on my rp3.... I'm wondering if getting Dave's fastrac midrange horns for my Belles would fix the listening fatigue I experience with my dynavector 10 X 5...i would like to keep the detail intact with my belles without experiencing listening fatigue with my belles at louder volumes... 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Woofers and Tweeters Posted September 9, 2016 Share Posted September 9, 2016 A known shortcoming of the Belle. I like the high range detail and bass from my upgraded Bell over the stock LaScala. Either one is still bass shy, compared to the Khorn, Cornwall and Chorus. What I did in the past, and last week set it up again, is using the KLF-30 bottoms as subs. I have several other subs but it's tough to beat what the four 12" drivers do. Everything that I've read said the Fastrac helps. I have no problem with the Belle sound...with a sub. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
babadono Posted September 9, 2016 Share Posted September 9, 2016 Can you say tractix midrange horn? I thought you could Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marvel Posted September 9, 2016 Share Posted September 9, 2016 Did you set the crossovers to attenuate the mids any, or did Dean do it when he shipped you the crossovers? Many find the tonal balance better with the mids knocked down around 3db. You will still have detail, but it will also allow you to up the gain a little without drilling into your forehead. Bruce 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hcnelly Posted September 9, 2016 Author Share Posted September 9, 2016 No, I don't think he did, but I also never asked him to....I'm certainly not very technologically savvy when it comes to my audio hobby, but I do know how I hear....i have a feeling that the genre of music I listen to certainly doesn't make it any easier on my speakers or my ears....I've heard of people knocking down the mids by 3db with their crossovers, but I wouldn't know how to do it myself with mine...i also know that going the fastrac route would cost a pretty penny, but I have equipment to sell if that's the right route for me to go Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chris A Posted September 9, 2016 Share Posted September 9, 2016 (edited) See: and a stock Belle: Edited September 9, 2016 by Chris A added stock tri-amp Belle link Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Schu Posted September 9, 2016 Share Posted September 9, 2016 Op... take a picture of the autoformer and its connections and we can tell you how it is attenuated. The fatigued feeling is more than likely high directivity... you dont happen to he sitting on axis are you? 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chris A Posted September 9, 2016 Share Posted September 9, 2016 I don't believe that you're going to fix that "listener's fatigue" using passive crossovers. Recommend the K-510 version. Chris Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chris A Posted September 9, 2016 Share Posted September 9, 2016 You may be able to physically time align the tweeter and midrange, like Bruce did. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pbphoto Posted September 9, 2016 Share Posted September 9, 2016 What's the condition of the drivers? They may need a little maintenance if they haven't been touched in 37 years. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ricktate Posted September 9, 2016 Share Posted September 9, 2016 I think you should check all connections and check the rubber washer on mid range . Another idea would be do the 4500hz mod from Bob Crites . Also could be the screws holding the horn to the motor board could be loose. Before I bought my new Scalas in 1980 I listened to Belles and Scalas next to each other and the Scala bigger horn sounded better. Plus the LaScalas were cheaper for a poor boy...lol about 624 each back then with top grills. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rxonmymind Posted September 9, 2016 Share Posted September 9, 2016 Wow sorry to hear this. The one thing my wife & I agree on is how nice the Belle's sound. Of course I have the stock crossovers and non of this issue of the brightness associated with new crossovers. I had my Sony STR 7055 recapped and right off the bat I noticed how much tighter the bass was, mids were great and the highs were fantastic. However, it was bright were before the recap it wasn't. A little adjustment of the treble and now it is absolutely wonderful. Makes me pause a bit and will keep the stock crossovers for a bit as I'm afraid I'll run into the same issue as you. Where I was able to physically turn down the treble and tame it better I don't see that with new crossovers. Unless they have some sort of dial. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Deang Posted September 9, 2016 Share Posted September 9, 2016 13 hours ago, hcnelly said: I recently upgraded the crossovers to type AA with Jupiter Caps from Aletheia Audio ...it certainly made the sound smoother and way more detailed (they're awesome), but I still experience listening fatigue.... I'm wondering if getting Dave's fastrac midrange horns for my Belles would fix the listening fatigue I experience with my dynavector 10 X 5...i would like to keep the detail intact with my belles without experiencing listening fatigue with my belles at louder volumes... I'm glad you like the new AAs. I agree with the suggestion to replace the washer between the K-55s and the K-500s. I don't attenuate the midrange unless it's requested - it does help quite a bit when you lean on the volume, but it won't be as engaging at lower volumes. Like Marvel said. This is an easy fix. I can make some jumpers for you and send you a couple of resistors - easy peasy - I'll step you through it. I use Fastrac horns in my LaScalas. I like them, but the sound isn't as dynamic as the K-400s at the volumes I listen at - which is pretty low - I'm a late night listener. PM me or email: dgwescott@gmail.com 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chris A Posted September 9, 2016 Share Posted September 9, 2016 There's one more area to explore: near-field room absorption. This includes the floor (carpet), the top of the Belles (fuzzy/thick quilt material or fabric), and side walls (if within a yard of a side wall), and the space between your Belles (absorbent material on the sides of equipment racks or furniture within a yard of the Belles). Near field reflections around the midrange horn mouth, alone, can cause the type of listening fatigue that you describe. 4 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Deang Posted September 9, 2016 Share Posted September 9, 2016 Agree. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marvel Posted September 9, 2016 Share Posted September 9, 2016 hcnelly - 1. the least expensive thing to try would be to make an adjustment on your crossovers. It is fairly simple to do, and several here, or Dean, could help you make the adjustment. 2. You could remove the tweeters from the cabinets and mount in a small baffle placed on top of the cabinets. Moved rearward, you can get the mid and tweeter physically time aligned. This will eliminate the time smear at the crossover point. Imaging is stunningly improved. 3. Replace the mid horn... cost is going up, but there are horn options available. 4. Go fully active by using a digital crossover to split the signal, adjust the driver delays that are needed, provide eq and phase adjustments and send the signals to three channels of amplifiers per side. The cost goes up with each step, as well as the accuracy of reproduction. Still, many find leaving the passive crossovers mostly stock, original horns and drivers to be very satisfying. Bruce 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marvel Posted September 9, 2016 Share Posted September 9, 2016 Ah, everyone posted while I was typing on my phone... all good. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hcnelly Posted September 9, 2016 Author Share Posted September 9, 2016 Wow, thanks for the replies! I don't plan on purchasing anything really until we get our basement remodeled...my listening area is certainly an issue right now...it's clustered....we're knocking out a wall to open up the basement, which will give my speakers room to breathe and some much needed space... Right now my speakers are almost 7 ft apart horn to horn, theyre both facing straight ahead...i don't have the room to toe them in much...I'm about 12 ft away listening....one good corner...Thats probably one of the main issues right now....i have a subwoofer in the way of my listening area and a recliner as well...my basement will get thicker carpeting on the floors after the remodel...i can't afford much more for soundproofing...ceilings are 8 1/2 feet tall I will try replacing the washers on the midrange drivers, and make sure the screws and everything are tight and secure with the horns....As far as the drivers, maybe they're in need of replacing? I see Bob crites is selling a new driver A-55g that looks interesting...what kind of changes to to the sound of my speakers would i get upgrading to these drivers? Would it take some of the harshness out? changing to Dean's crossovers from the original ones was a night and day difference...it was an essential upgrade, and money well spent I have to keep the tweeter horn or midrange horn inside the cabinets because I have cats that hang out on the tops to perch....I will get a hold of you Dean....i can certainly try to adust the crossovers if it's something I can do myself with guidance.......right now, it might be best to dial down the midrange for louder sessions, it's worth a shot....when my wife and I have our baby in January, I'll be listening at lower volumes, so I'll need to be able to bring the midrange back to the way it was originally ...I'm wondering if the fastrac horns would make lower listening sessions less enjoyable.... Marvel and Chris, I'm confused about the digital crossover? Is this difficult to setup, I think this would be too complicated for me....I'd like to keep the Belles looking the same, keeping any horns or upgrades in the cabinets... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marvel Posted September 9, 2016 Share Posted September 9, 2016 Chris explains much of the info here. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dirtmudd Posted September 10, 2016 Share Posted September 10, 2016 On 9/8/2016 at 7:59 PM, hcnelly said: Well, my klipsch belles are from 1979, and I've had them for over a year now, and they are my main speakers for two channel....i had Cornwall iiis before that, and while I loved them, they always sounded like a Heresy III speaker, in a bigger box, with better bass...they use the same midrange horn, and I always felt the cornwall III had an undersized midrange horn for such a large speaker, and it lacked detail, not only in movies, but in music on vinyl records as well...i honestly preferred my forte Is over the cornwall III in movies and music with that k53 horn....i feel the forte Is size is better suited and balanced for that particular midrange horn....needless to say, I sold my cornwalls iiis to get the belles and I kept the forte Is...i guess i was hoping it would be an upgrade for my listening tastes The Belles are definitely a different speaker (seriously more detailed and up-front)....i used my scott 340a and 299b, and I've never experienced as much listening fatigue with the cornwall III or forte I's as I do with these belles....i listen to rock, heavy metal, blues, etc....I'm looking at building a tuba horn loaded sub for the belles to get some lower bass later down the road..i recently upgraded the crossovers to type AA with Jupiter Caps from aletheia audio...it certainly made the sound smoother and way more detailed (they're awesome), but I still experience listening fatigue.... I listen to a lot of vinyl with the Belles, at just over 85db, and I swap between two turntables....my main turntable is a rega rp3, fitted with a dynavector 10X5 MC cartridge...it sounded incredibly detailed and rocked with the cornwall iiis...with the belles and its new crossovers, it's still too bright, yet exceptionally detailed....with my second turntable, it's my dad's Bang &Olufsen Beogram 4002, which uses a MM cartridge....i really like it as I don't experience the listening fatigue or harshness as bad, but it's definitely not as detailed as the dynavector on my rp3.... I'm wondering if getting Dave's fastrac midrange horns for my Belles would fix the listening fatigue I experience with my dynavector 10 X 5...i would like to keep the detail intact with my belles without experiencing listening fatigue with my belles at louder volumes... Try some tube rolling with preamp tubes & check the bias Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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