Belle listening fatigue

[mark1101]

2 hours ago, jwc said:

I like passives as first choice if available.   I've done the digital stuff and I'm not against it....I just wouldn't choose it first. 

 

The Belles have a nasty peak at 125Hz-150Hz.  The earlier XO's for it.... don't address this.  The last made Belle XO had some notches in the LF filter.  If you price out the parts to put in the notch, you'll find it cheaper to put in line an "Equalizer".

 

I like the idea of the EQ myself.  If you change the XO you may not have a Klipsch speaker anymore.  Only Klipsch is allowed to modify their speakers, and I see you have adhered to the rule.  So carry on.

[Honeybadger]

3 hours ago, Chris A said:

I've recently been reviewing a source on the design of horns (sometimes referred to as "waveguides" but this is actually an attempt at branding of one author, Dr. Earl Geddes).  Here is an excerpt from a discussion on "higher order modes" (HOMs) of horns:

 

"HOMs will be generated to some extent in any device with non-straight walls. In essence [HOMs} are the diffraction of the throat wave around the curves in the walls."

 

Some points that I think are important to note that are related to "listener fatigue" and HOMs of horns:

 

1) Most of these discussions are usually focused on horns that reproduce midrange frequencies.

 

2) HOMs emerge from the horn's mouth at a frequency that's related to its throat diameter.  For 2" horns with non-straight walls, that occurs at or above 4 kHz, for 1" diameter horns, it's ~8 kHz and higher.  The closer that you cross over to these frequencies with horns that have non-straight walls, the more that you'll notice that "frying bacon" sound (for horns with slots in their throats) or "horn sound" for horns that have smooth interior walls but that have curved side walls.

 

3) For HOMs created below this "cut-on frequency" (i.e., HOMs emerging from the horn's mouth) these HOMs are called "evanescent modes", and don't directly emerge from the horn's mouth. But the HOMs are reflected back to the horn's compression driver where they interact with the compression driver diaphragm to produce complex interactions which result in the creation of added distortion which is especially audible at higher SPLs.

 

3)  The K-510 and K-402 horns have flat walls (except near their mouths where they roll out tangent at the horn's mouth using a tractrix curve--which prevents the "waistbanding" of the horn's polar coverage just above the lowest frequencies that the horn can support before losing its polar control).  These straight-sided horns are extremely clean sounding and have no "horn sound" relative to exponential horns such as the K-400, K-500, etc. 

 

The point here is that there is something qualitatively different about the K-510 and K-402 horns in terms of the cleanness of their sound and freedom from listener fatigue.  That's why I recommend the "JuBelle" configuration from Klipsch if listener fatigue is a factor for the owner.

 

I think that a lot has been learned in the past 20-25 years (since the early 1990s) about exactly why different horn profiles sound different and perform differently in terms of their hi-fi performance.  I recommend using these type of midrange horn profiles instead of those having curved side walls.

 

Chris

 Chief Bonehead said recently:

 

Maybe you should have had discussions with paul about modifying klipsch speakers.....to put it mildly... He thought it was crazy. He thought that ANY mod that did not come from klipsch or was not authorized by klipsch was worthless....."after all, how would they know what they were doing?"  

 

HB.....Is a JuBelle and authorized mod? Or is it worthless?

 

[mark1101]

Chris drilled out his 402s too and tried to make a Danley.  I'd say that's a slightly unauthorized mod.  But maybe I'm wrong.  

[Chris A]

I believe that's a bit over the top (in terms of cynicism).  I don't believe that there is a conspiracy, but I do believe that common sense applies. 

 

1) If what you're doing is DIY, especially if using Klipsch-supplied hardware, then no one can really have a problem.  You take full responsibility for the integration.

 

2) If you're using third-party HW, then just be aware that there is no "magic", only lower prices, but perhaps lower performance (i.e., you shouldn't expect the highest performance with third party HW). You take full responsibility for the integration.

 

3) If you're using third-party HW that's advertised to have magical properties or performance exceeding Klipsch's hardware, then I'd recommend keeping it to yourself, or at least not advertised on this forum.

 

I don't think that's too much to ask, especially since Klipsch is providing this service free-of-charge.  I think a healthy respect for their interests is warranted and fair.  Wouldn't you if you were providing this kind of service (a quality web site) free of charge, on top of trying to run a business...Mark (both of you)?

 

Chris

[jwc]

15 minutes ago, Chris A said:

I don't think that's too much to ask, especially since Klipsch is providing this service free-of-charge.  I think a healthy respect for their interests is warranted and fair.  Wouldn't you if you were providing this kind of service (a quality web site) free of charge, on top of trying to run a business...Mark?

I don't think I follow the logic there with the 3 options above it.  

 

Free service or not, Klipsch probably gets upset with somebody selling "upgrades" to their current line of products on this forum.........even if LS II network or reference.....  I get it.

 

Even if it cost a member 25 bucks per year to be on the forum.....they would still be just as upset.

 

Now if someone does any mod as you have described or the times I've done it....It ain't Klipsch anymore and yes.....your responsibility.  I'm "guilty" of that too....if it is really "guilty".

 

 

 

 

[jwc]

Honestly, I couldn't have lived with the Belle w/o an EQ or something.  It would have been a piece of showoff furniture.

 

Plus.....the tweeters didn't match.  Which do I replace.  Does the most modern day network   (last type made) work in this "version" of Belle?  Too many unknowns to "Keep Klipsch". 

 

So I'm in the camp of "updates" if the retired bone stock Klipsch doesn't have available replacement parts appropriate.

 

Why in the Hell am I getting into this discussion.........I need to shut up.

[jwc]

I will say I don't think I've ever "defaced" a Klipsch product to which can't be returned to stock.  So Chris......I would say you are a BIGGER mod guy than me!

[Chris A]

9 minutes ago, jwc said:

Even if it cost a member 25 bucks per year to be on the forum.....they would still be just as upset.

 

Does that include you?

 

I wouldn't recommend trying to advertise third party products on this site, either, and that's essentially what I enumerated.  What I failed to say was this: you can talk about third-party products in DIY applications here--as an amateur doing DIY, but I certainly wouldn't do it in a way that puts Klipsch's competing after-market products in a poor light (assuming Klipsch has a competing product).  I also wouldn't advertise or talk up third party products while putting down anything about Klipsch.  I would encourage Klipsch to use any DIY designs, free of charge, that they might have any interest in doing themselves.  That's fair and really mutually beneficial.  What's good for Klipsch's longevity and product performance is actually good for all of us.  If Klipsch (heaven forbid) were no longer around, who would benefit?

 

1 minute ago, jwc said:

I will say I don't think I've ever "defaced" a Klipsch product to which can't be returned to stock.  So Chris......I would say you are a BIGGER mod guy than me!

True, but I offer everything back to Klipsch (or whomever wants to do it themselves) without regard for my financial benefit.  I think that's one purpose of them having a web site - how their customers "mistreat their products" is a source for future designs and future markets not being serviced.

 

Chris

[jwc]

 

10 minutes ago, Chris A said:

you can talk about third-party products in DIY applications here--as an amateur doing DIY, but I certainly wouldn't do it in a way that puts Klipsch's competing after-market products in a poor light (assuming Klipsch has a competing product).

Agreed. 

 

I pay 25 bucks for another forum and I give all kinds of recommendations

[billybob]

Chris A,

Would you mind defining for me what is a 1st, 2nd, and a third party vendor for purposes of discussion here, or on another thread?

I am probably missing some understanding of the differences, which can translate to confusion of my understanding.

Thanks for your input, in advance.

[Chris A]

I use this definition: https://www.google.com/search?safe=off&hl=en&site=webhp&source=hp&q=definition+third+party+product&oq=definition+thrid-party+product

 

Perhaps if there were another less confusing term, I'd use that one.  Sorry for any confusion.

 

Chris

[Audio Flynn]

6 hours ago, NOSValves said:

With the Scott gear you mentioned you power the Belle's with I'd be suprised if the problem is not with some other part of your system or room unless of course the Scott's ate not working properly...Scott gear like most vintage gear usually never causes fatigue. The reverse is usually the description...I'd suspect the room first..

 

The 7 foot distance between the speakers and the room reflections are a concern of mine.

[billybob]

Thanks Chris A..., I will try it out!

[billybob]

Here is where your link took ne Chris A...

Third Party:

 

A separate individual or organization other than the two principals involved. A third party is typically a company that provides an auxiliary product not supplied by the primary manufacturer to the end user (the two principals). Countless third-party add-on and plug-in products keep the computer industry advancing at a rapid pace. The third-party vendor is often the most innovative.

[Honeybadger]

5 hours ago, Chris A said:

I've recently been reviewing a source on the design of horns (sometimes referred to as "waveguides" but this is actually an attempt at branding of one author, Dr. Earl Geddes).  Here is an excerpt from a discussion on "higher order modes" (HOMs) of horns:

 

"HOMs will be generated to some extent in any device with non-straight walls. In essence [HOMs} are the diffraction of the throat wave around the curves in the walls."

 

Some points that I think are important to note that are related to "listener fatigue" and HOMs of horns:

 

1) Most of these discussions are usually focused on horns that reproduce midrange frequencies.

 

2) HOMs emerge from the horn's mouth at a frequency that's related to its throat diameter.  For 2" horns with non-straight walls, that occurs at or above 4 kHz, for 1" diameter horns, it's ~8 kHz and higher.  The closer that you cross over to these frequencies with horns that have non-straight walls, the more that you'll notice that "frying bacon" sound (for horns with slots in their throats) or "horn sound" for horns that have smooth interior walls but that have curved side walls.

 

3) For HOMs created below this "cut-on frequency" (i.e., HOMs emerging from the horn's mouth) these HOMs are called "evanescent modes", and don't directly emerge from the horn's mouth. But the HOMs are reflected back to the horn's compression driver where they interact with the compression driver diaphragm to produce complex interactions which result in the creation of added distortion which is especially audible at higher SPLs.

 

3)  The K-510 and K-402 horns have flat walls (except near their mouths where they roll out tangent at the horn's mouth using a tractrix curve--which prevents the "waistbanding" of the horn's polar coverage just above the lowest frequencies that the horn can support before losing its polar control).  These straight-sided horns are extremely clean sounding and have no "horn sound" relative to exponential horns such as the K-400, K-500, etc. 

I thought Geddes was using 30 PPI foam to control high order modes.

 

Another paragraph taken out of context: Controlling HOM  Having realized the importance of the HOMs there are things that are quite separate of the waveguide  design that one can do to minimize these undesirable characteristics.  I have learned that the inclusion  of foam within the body of the waveguide will reduce the HOMs much more than the primary wave thus  yielding a pronounced net benefit in sound quality (patent pending)

 

 

I haven't see that applied to the K-510 or K402.

 

[Chris A]

That's a Geddes patent.  I think that it works fairly well, but the way that our legal system works, when someone patents it, then they hold out for money, even if they didn't produce the product themselves.

 

Note that the Geddes patent on an updated phase plug design for a compression driver was allowed to expire due to failure to pay the maintenance fees, but the patent on the foam was updated, i.e., patent maintenance fees were paid.  That should be a clue.

 

What I've found is this: better is better.  Straight-sided horns are better than curved ones in the ways that we've discussed above.  If I could also have a foam  plug to try out for a very low added cost, I'd probably do that, too. But...

 

Tom Danley failed to pay his fees on the original multiple entry horn patent design for his prior company affiliation, and the patent is now expired (two years ago as of August of this year, which makes reinstatement for "an oversight in paying patent maintenance fees" much more problematic).  That design is very useful to my needs, and is now free of legal encumbrances.

 

Chris

[mustang guy]

On 9/8/2016 at 8:48 PM, babadono said:

Can you say tractix midrange horn? I thought you could

traxic

tactics

tartics

tractorics

traxtric

 

I give up!

[Honeybadger]

27 minutes ago, Chris A said:

That's a Geddes patent.  I think that it works fairly well, but the way that our legal system works, when someone patents it, then they hold out for money, even if they didn't produce the product themselves.

 

Note that the Geddes patent on an updated phase plug design for a compression driver was allowed to expire due to failure to pay the maintenance fees, but the patent on the foam was updated, i.e., patent update fees were paid.  That should be a clue.

 

What I've found is this: better is better.  Straight-sided horns are better than curved ones in the ways that we've discussed above.  If I could also have a foam  plug to try out for a very low added cost, I'd probably do that, too. But...

 

Tom Danley failed to pay his fees on the original multiple entry horn patent design for his prior company affiliation, and the patent is now expired (two years ago as of August of this year, which makes reinstatement for "an oversight in paying patent maintenance fees" much more problematic.  That design is very useful to my needs, and is now free of legal encumbrances.

 

Chris

What I have found is Tractrix horns sound great, and they do not require equalization, 3 amplifiers and active crossover.

 

I have tried it all, and gone back to passives with Tractrix.

 

You pimp this product on the forum more than any vendor.

[babadono]

1 hour ago, mark1101 said:

 If you change the XO you may not have a Klipsch speaker anymore.

Now that there is funny If you turn up(or down) the bass tone control it's no longer "the Beatles"(or whoever) per George Martin(producer/recording engineer)

[babadono]

26 minutes ago, mustang guy said:

traxic

tactics

tartics

tractorics

traxtric

 

I give up!

Otay! Good try. Can you say Egg McMuffin?