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K-horn inductor DCR and tonal balance ?


karlson3

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I put in an order for some 14ga SuperQ 4mH coils to try AK3's lowpass in my type A network (my K-horn are stock ~1981 and use AA networks) - i guess its a matter of amplifier and cable used but how does K-horn's bass sound with lower insertion loss inductor vs stock Klipsch inductor ?  What was the DCR of Klipsch 4mH?   In YouTube tests, ERSE IXQ have lower distortion than their SuperQ - (it wasn't one on one inductance-wise) - thinner lamination pieces are probably more linear than the dumbell core - both should be clean enough.   Can you hear a difference between Klipsch and SuperQ ?

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I don't know, but I'm also interested.  Some time ago I bought some 12 ga inductors for my Type AAs and never installed them.  While I believe the most nearly perfect components will sound the best, I recognize Klipsch and Associates, used certain components and their imperfection to voice the speakers and I haven't wanted to mess with what I like. 

 

I going to guess the difference will be fractions of a dB most of the time and a little more when you play it loud, but mostly in the realm of "flavor".  Please do it and tell us what you think! 

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HI John,  I've not been able to listen to my K-horns very long - bass sounds bloated and indistinct - maybe its something which can be addressed with EQ (I'll lave to pull a Behringer 31 band EQ)  - have any of the forum members tried North Reading's Khorn notch filter?  - I may de-wind a 20mH SuperQ down to 13mH and give it a try with the 4mH choke ordered.   From what I can tell, and DJK's comments, ERSE's best value steel core inductors are their IXQ .   http://www.northreadingeng.com/Klipschorn_notch/Notch_Filter.html

 

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2 hours ago, karlson3 said:

have any of the forum members tried North Reading's Khorn notch filter?

 

Here is the thread -

only limited discussion but the AK-4 schematic was posted in the thread and it has a similar notch filter, so how does the AK-4 bass sound compared to AK-3 ?

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hi Wirrunna - thank you very much for that link - I have some beefy EI core 8mH inductors and wonder if those can be used for the notch filter (?)  8mH is between North Reading's 12.9mH and AK4's 6mH notch filter value.  Maybe if I get a notch filter on the basshorn, and tuned P-trap notch on the squawker's peak, then things will be better.

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Karlson, I have been toying with the idea of building one of the notch filters and using a Jantzen P-Core 8.2mH 17AWG 0.39 Ω inductor, based on looking at the reactance charts and noting that the difference is pretty minor and also I can get the 8.2mH at a good price. But first I want to move the crossover from the woofer chamber and mount it in the top hat. It is far easier to get at up in the top hat than in the woofer chamber.

I did replace the AK-3 stock 4mH laminated steel with a Jantzen P-Core 4.7mH 15AWG 0.224 Ω that I unwound to 4mH and sheepishly confess that I couldn't hear any difference. However, I feel better and have told myself that the bass is tighter, has more thump and lots more air and that's before opening the windows!

 

Here are two more threads for late night reading - in this one ALK details his Universal Crossover Network utilizing the AK-3 woofer

and in this one shows the schematic for ALK's Universal modified for 4,500Hz

After swapping in Bob Crites CT120 tweeters I built an ALK Universal at 4,500Hz utilising the AK-3 woofer network and have to say it sounds better than the AK-3 (re-capped with Sonicaps), better stereo imaging, greater sound stage depth and much less harshness in the mid range. I only play the system at low levels, rarely above 90db in a large well damped room.

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some years back I measured my older Khorn without inductor - but the image is long lost thanks to Imageshack (and I was a paying customer)

 

anyhow  - I just measured my right Khorn which has a Type B network converted to battery biased Type A using MBGO caps.

 

Here's three perspectives - my standing/listening position, mic at same distance from the Khorn but laying on the floor, then finally, the mic on the floor and poked into the right mouth of the Khorn

 

which perspective dominates what we hear?  - with the mic back ~ 8 feet and up to midhorn center height,

the response looks pretty flat.   When the mic is moved to the floor, there's a peak around 136Hz.  When

the mic is poked into the basshorn's mouth, it maxes at the same F.

 

1/6 octave for clarity

5qLykfJ.gif

 

1/24 octave

 

k85r1z8.gif

 

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thanks Wirrunna 

 

what parts values are in your ALK Universal?  - I have parts (Mylar caps, coils) for one version.

 

I wonder why there's so much difference in the tuning of North Reading's and the Klipsch AK-4 notch filters?  Did the Klipschorn change woofers by AK-4 time?  Can we get good results experimenting between these two in values?  IF I can find some resistors, then will wire up something with 8mH

 

Series Notch Filter Calculator http://lautsprechershop.de/index_hifi_en.htm?http://lautsprechershop.de/tools/t_ps_schwingkreis_en.htm

 

North Reading's notch filter impedance
 

http://i.imgur.com/834YLoT.jpg

 

AK-4 notch filter impedance


http://i.imgur.com/rRAO7ic.jpg

 

North Reading's graph - with second_order_LP.jpgand without their filter

 

 

 

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On 22/09/2016 at 6:14 AM, karlson3 said:

what parts values are in your ALK Universal?  - I have parts (Mylar caps, coils) for one version.

 

 

For the 54uF I'm using 2x25uF Dayton 1% + 2x2uF Sonicaps, for the caps in series with the tweeter I'm using Jantzen Superior Z caps, 2X1.5uF for the 3uF and 8.2 +1uF for the 9.2uF. The 3uF to ground in the squaker network is a 3uF sonicap.

The coils are Litz where specified.

 

Originally I built the network using Sonicaps and Jantzen air coils but changed to Litz coils (and couldn't hear any difference), but when I changed the Sonicaps to Jantzen Superior Zs I thought I could hear some difference with a very slight softening of the mids and highs. I have Superior Zs for the 54uF (2x22 + 10uF) but have not fitted them yet as they are the size of Coke cans and require almost a complete dis-assembly and and re-build of the network.

 

I did play my K-Horns with an AK-3 in one and the Universal in the other but it wasn't until I played the Universal in both

that the difference was really apparent.

The notch filter calculator is fascinating, thank you for that link, I will have a bit more of a play before I commit to building.

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fwiw, I wired up 12.9mH, ~150uF and 3.8R in series and put that across the K-horn woofer - I only see about -2.5dB effect around 146Hz for the filter vs none.  Maybe its not a solid connection as tried to get the filter's wires onto the the small Klipsch crossover barrier strip.    I assume the action of the filter comes from its shunt impedance vs the crossover inductor's impedance to form a frequency dependent L-pad ?  (Please elaborate)    If I had some little spade lugs, connections would be better.   What size spade are stock Klipsch lugs called?

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Tom Danley suggests a parallel filter (components parallel with each other) in series with the lowpass and woofer -- - 3mH/500uF/6 ohms .    I have some sort of "room boom" on top of response issues - once the walls are excited - they ring in the bass frequencies like a giant drum head.  Kick and tom drums sound horrible with significant overhang.   Maybe the more aggressive filter will help.   If I liberate a 31 band eq from a mini-rack then might find out.

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On 9/27/2016 at 2:55 PM, karlson3 said:

a rough AJ-horn sim looks similar to what I observed - -Red trace is with the notch filter "IN"  - what am I doing wrong not to replicate North Reading's result?  Maybe N-R used 4mh/100uF vs my 2.5mH lowpass,

 

Exactly - N-R used a low pass of 4.2mH and 110uF - http://www.northreadingeng.com/Klipschorn_notch/Notch_Filter.html

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