New Klipsch Owner - 2.0 system

[ScooterMcTavish]

Hi all, 

 

I wrote a long post describing how I ended up with a set of Klipsch after my first foray into "audiophile" grade components, but it unfortunately disappeared when I tried to post it.  As a new member, I think I had not signed in properly, or it took me too long to write the post.  Here is a very brief summation:

 

- Have enjoyed traditional mid-fil stuff (H/K, NAD, Marantz, Rotel, Mission, JBL, Boston, Wharfedale) with a preference for the "British sound", though I have noticed the general quality level of a number of these brands dropping over the last 30 years or so 

- Typically have avoided horn and metal dome tweeters, have often found them sizzly, harsh, or tinnitus/headach inducing

- Moved, sold stuff I owned to buy my first audiophile grade stuff system after demoing Focal, Monitor Audio (BX series), Bostons, and Definitive Technology, and hearing nothing markedly better than what I already owned

- Ended up buying a used Musical Fidelity a3.2 integrated, and barely used Soliloquy 6.2 speakers, sounded great alone, sounded horrible together, serious, uncorrectable room issues

- Traded MF for McIntosh MA-6100, better

- Circulated other speakers I own (Wharfedale and Mission) through the system, decide a standmount works better in the space

- Look for a better standmount than my bargain Mission, and see that Klipsch seem to be in a reasonable position in the market

- Decide to go to local retailer to try Klipsch again, see if it was bad as my previous experience.  Surprised by the musicality and dynamics of the speakers, enjoy a 30 minute demo with no headaches or tinnutis

- Take home a pair of NOS RB-600 for the princely sum of $299 CDN ($230 US)  

 

So as much as I always thought Klipsch were not for me, I was surprised by the RB-600, and have had them set up for two days.  After giving them a bit more critical listening last night, I had a few questions, as I am unable to replicate the "magic" of the demo at the store. 

 

- Positioning: Currently approx 6' apart, 8' from listening area, aimed straight out.  Do they do better with toe in?  The soundstage is large but somewhat muddled, and I find some of the vocal frequencies sound a little choked off a bit.

- Break in: Do they require some?  I've had a few speakers require some time to mechanically loosen up, and other that sound the same at hour 1,000 as they did at hour 1.  I wonder if the woofer needs to loosen up a bit for the 1-2khz range to open up

- Response: Are these speakers actually flat?  Or does the tweeter allow higher frequencies to be produced without the roll off we normally see in my traditional favorite, the cloth dome....

- Quality: Last time I listened to some Klipsch was in the 2000s somewhere, and I remember them as being horribly up front, with me only being able to listen to them for 10 minutes or so.  Was this a setup issue, or has the quality improved over this time?

 

I'm actually rather excited by the potential of these, as I hugely love high end dynamics in music, yet have rarely found a speaker that can deliver this without bloating in the upper mids. 

 

Appreciate the feedback of others, and am glad to be here....

[Chris A]

48 minutes ago, ScooterMcTavish said:

Do they do better with toe in?

All loudspeakers do, with the exception of dipoles (including planars).

 

48 minutes ago, ScooterMcTavish said:

The soundstage is large but somewhat muddled, and I find some of the vocal frequencies sound a little choked off a bit.

That sounds suspiciously like midbass boom.  Recommend using corner bass traps and nearfield absorption panels or tapestries/fuzzy material/drapes if your loudspeakers are within a metre (yard) of a wall.  Recommend using carpet in the nearfield around the loudspeakers.  

 

48 minutes ago, ScooterMcTavish said:

Break in: Do they require some?

All woofers require break-in, on the order of a few hours (less than 8-12 hours) if listening in the 70-80 dB at one metre range.  Midrange/tweeter drivers usually require a bit less, but their suspension compliances change a bit over the first few hours, too.  But they usually don't have as much effect on the overall sound timbre.

 

48 minutes ago, ScooterMcTavish said:

Response: Are these speakers actually flat?  Or does the tweeter allow higher frequencies to be produced without the roll off we normally see in my traditional favorite, the cloth dome

I'd bet they're fairly flat in frequency response, at least down to 200 Hz or so.  There may be peaks around the crossover frequencies, but Klipsch usually doesn't add a "room curve" to their loudspeakers, and I believe that's one reason why so many people love their sound.

 

48 minutes ago, ScooterMcTavish said:

Quality: Last time I listened to some Klipsch was in the 2000s somewhere, and I remember them as being horribly up front, with me only being able to listen to them for 10 minutes or so.  Was this a setup issue, or has the quality improved over this time?

That was a room acoustics issue.  Klipsch uses collapsing polar midrange horns (vertical axis) on their Heritage line, i.e., Khorn, La Scala, Belle, Cornwall, and Heresy, which require some absorption around them--usually in the form of carpet and high ceilings.  Keeping all acoustically reflective objects away from them within a 1 metre radius (including equipment stands and electronics boxes) helps a great deal in controlling that "up front" sound.  Having smooth walls within 1 metre with no roughness (like rough bricks) or furnishings in the room corners helps a great deal. 

 

See the following thread for more information on this and other related subjects:

Chris

[Chris A]

BTW: A picture is worth thousands of words...in terms of troubleshooting.  It's your call, however.

 

Chris

[Marvel]

2 hours ago, ScooterMcTavish said:

I wrote a long post describing how I ended up with a set of Klipsch after my first foray into "audiophile" grade components, but it unfortunately disappeared when I tried to post it.  As a new member, I think I had not signed in properly, or it took me too long to write the post.

 

Welcome to the forums. The forum software does not automatically log you out. You can stay logged in for days with no activity with no problem. You just need to make sure you hit the submit topic or submit reply. If you weren't signed in, you wouldn't even be able to enter a post or reply.

 

Bruce

[ScooterMcTavish]

Thanks Chris and Marvel,

 

I'm actually somewhat embarrassed to post a pic as where I've ended up having to place my stereo is about as far from an ideal location as I would have liked to in my space.  That being said, here it is - just substitute two RB-600s on 24" stands in the place of the Soliloquys.

 

Issue is the right side of the setup - there is a panel, followed by 4' of open space, followed by another 3' panel (side of kitchen island).

 

Centre has carpet approx 2' in front of the speakers (floor is hardwood), and a glass-top coffee table approx 5' away from the speakers.  Carpet is more to the left side of the setup.

 

The left side has a sofa, and a large window with drapery treatments.

 

The room ends 4' behind the main listening position, part of which is an open doorway upstairs, and open doorway downstairs (4-way split), and some wall.

 

Because of being packed back into the corner, I was actually getting my bass stuck behind the unit and towers - the Soliloquy's are rear ported near the bottom, and sound was getting trapped at that end of the room.  Standmounts seem to breathe a lot easier.

 

[Chris A]

I'd recommend trying just pulling the RB-600s out away from the wall by 30-60 cm (a foot or two) and toeing them in at your listening position, then push them back against the wall when finished listening to them.  Losing a little bass reinforcement from the front wall is a small price to pay for the advantages gained.

 

If you've got a throw rug or even a couple of towels that you can place on the floor to absorb floor bounce about to about half-way back, this will improve the timbre and stridency.  It's certainly easy to experiment with doing, especially if you have a spouse that's out on errands.  Then you can hear the difference and figure out if it is something that you'd want to make more permanent.

 

I'd also recommend moving things around a bit to keep any reflective table tops and art work away from your listening position/ears by at least a metre (or throwing something fuzzy/absorbent on top of them).  This will improve imaging.

[derrickdj1]

Welcome to the forum Scooter.  Chris gave some good advice.  Get the speakers of the wall and your listening seat may need to come forward.  With horn type speakers, I don't aim them directly at the ear and more toward the shoulders.  You need to experiment to get thing right.  Look into some small decortive room treatments.

[mikebse2a3]

2 hours ago, Marvel said:

 

Welcome to the forums. The forum software does not automatically log you out. You can stay logged in for days with no activity with no problem. You just need to make sure you hit the submit topic or submit reply. If you weren't signed in, you wouldn't even be able to enter a post or reply.

 

Bruce

 

The new Forum constantly logs me off and if it takes me more than a few minutes to write a post it evidently logs me off because when I hit submit I loose my the post and have to log on again.

 

It's a big pain in the a$$ so I've learned to copy my post before submitting in case the forum has logged me off again..!!!! 

 

miketn 

[ScooterMcTavish]

2 hours ago, Chris A said:

It's certainly easy to experiment with doing, especially if you have a spouse that's out on errands.  Then you can hear the difference and figure out if it is something that you'd want to make more permanent.

The second line is the hard part.  LOL.

 

Believe it or not, I used a set of Mission M72s to try out standmounts, and was impressed by how much the additional space helped them out.  So when I brought the Klipsch home two days ago (while she was out), I put away the Missions and put out the Klipsch.  She has still not noticed, nor have my kids who are usually perceptive.  Heehee.  Though I have cheated by leaving the grille covers on.

 

We'll see if I get a chance to move them a bit farther out this evening, and I'll play with the toe in to see what difference it will make.

 

Appreciate the tips.

[garyrc]

Is that a Brownie Hawkeye next to your right speaker?  Is it part of your acoustical strategy? 

 

Chris has given you good advice.

[ScooterMcTavish]

Well, thanks for the advice all.

 

So last night, I followed the recommended advice, and pulled out the speakers, toed them in a few different ways including aimed directly at my face to just outside my shoulders, and went through a variety of digital and CD tunes.  I also threw a few towels down around on the hard surfaces to dampen the reflections.  Soundstaging certainly improved, and I lost some of the mid-bass bloat which was likely coming off the panel to the right of the speakers. 

 

Although the sound was adequate, and I liked the upper end dynamics, it still sounded "off" to me.  Putting my finger on it was difficult, as it wasn't obvious - it was something subtly different than other speakers I've owned.  However, I did notice off-axis resolution suffered more with the Klipsch than it did with traditional dome tweeters.

 

For comparison, I brought in a few speakers to A-B the Klipsch.  The Mc has a lovely feature where the full signal can be put to one channel or another, so the twist of a knob gives me quick access to compare.  First up was the Mission M72.  As a 2-way 6.5" woofer design, it is very comparable to the Klipsch, except for it is rear-ported vs front ported.

 

Initially, the difference in bass was most notable, with the Mission producing more, but of a poorer quality.  The Klipsch had much tighter, better-defined bass, while the Mission was gross and sloppy.  On closer listen however, the "real" differences showed up in the midrange and top end.

 

I believe both speakers are crossed over around 2kHz, so the way the sound is shared between drivers should be similar.  Where the Mission was fairly smooth and natural, the Klipsch was a bit more forward.  But was was interesting to me was just because more sound seemed to be present in the 2-5 kHz range on the Klipsch (checked via eq) the sound wasn't necessarily better.  It almost seemed a bit compressed (I'll use the word "choked" again) to the midrange on the Missions.

 

When we moved up the scale to higher frequencies, there were differences here as well.  Guitar and vocal dynamics, cymbals, etc. all had a crisp but smooth sound through the Missions, while the Klipsch also were crisp, but somewhat overbearing.  Much like the main range of the vocals, the Klipsch seemed to be resolving more information, but not necessarily in a manner my ear found pleasing.  I think the word "strident" is too strong - "muddled" might be a better term, as the additional information did not enhance the listening, it detracted from it.

 

And in the interests of experimentation, I hooked up a set of Wharfedale 10.6 to compare vs. a 3-way system, and to see if possibly these towers might balance the sound I was hoping for in the setup.  After about two songs, the other Wharfedale was added to the system, and the Klipsch were boxed up for return to the store today.

 

Appreciate the feedback, and I was much more impressed with the Klipsch listening to it this time versus past experiences.  However, the way in which it resolved information, and the harmonics its design produces just does not appear to suit my ears.  The off-axis response, needed changes in floor placement, and room treatments needed were likely also going to them unworkable for the space they were in.  However, this trial also had value in that if anyone asks me about Klipsch, I can now give them an honest appraisal, and suggest they at least give them a listen.

 

PS: My eldest did notice I had swapped out the Missions, but is well-trained enough to know not to say anything....

[Chris A]

What were you listening to?

[ScooterMcTavish]

Hey Chris, Vinyl, CD, and decent-res music (bought at the iTunes store) via iPhone.

 

A mix of everything - dance, punk-pop, Zeppelin, classical, organ music, and Dire Straits.  The one that settled it for me though was Chris Isaak.  I found the natural timbre of his voice was over-enhanced, and again, not in a natural way (i.e. mids too high).  Whereas the Wharfedales (and Missions) preserved a nice, laid-back texture to his voice, the Klipsch sounded almost "pushed" where it was more forward, yet on what appeared to be only some of the frequencies (choked is the best term I can use again).

 

So, now a set of La Scalas have shown up in local classifieds - think I'll need to go check them out.  Although the RB-600 wasn't my cup of tea, I was impressed at their overall qualities to at least consider additional Klipsch models. 

 

Now off to the La Scala thread in the forum.

[Chris A]

I was looking at that particular model of Wharfedale speaker that you own.  Having a dedicated midrange driver from 100 Hz to 2.5 kHz at that price point is probably part of the story.  The RB-600 is one the lowest cost Klipsch loudspeakers that have been marketed. 

 

If you were instead to compare to perhaps a used Heresy or even a Palladium (any model) with horn-loaded midrange in a suitable acoustic space, I'm thinking that you'd form a much different opinion: lower distortion loudspeakers will certainly grow on you over time.  Your Wharfedales look to be significantly more expensive than the bookshelf RB-600s also.  At these price points, cost determines performance pretty strongly.  At slightly higher price points, you're getting to where the advantages of the Klipsch approach to loudspeakers (i.e., use of at least horn-loaded midranges and tweeters) come into their own.  The La Scala is one of the more notable designs that many here regard highly.  But note that the same room acoustics limitations that I talked about above (including the corner horn imaging FAQ) apply to La Scalas, Belles, Cornwalls, and even Heresies. 

 

The reason why I asked about your listening preferences is that the music genre most listened to in these smaller loudspeaker models usually is a strong determinant of preference.  Thanks for your reply.

 

Chris

[ScooterMcTavish]

Appreciate your responses to the subject Chris, and you are being an excellent ambassador for the Klipsch community, especially to someone new to the brand like myself.

 

Exclusive of the Wharfedales, please note I did prefer the sound of the Mission M72 to the Klipsch, even though the M72 are/were (at least in Canada) roughly 4/7 the original MSRP of the Klipsch.  The M72 did need better placement as well (very boomy bass), but again had that laid back and articulate mid/upper mid range I felt was a bit strong in the Klipsch.

 

Unfortunately, the La Scalas were posted at about 8:00 AM and were gone by 11:00 AM, so I will not get a chance to listen to them.  My plan was to place them in a different room where the walls and floor are inert, and I have the ability to engage in a larger variety of treatment and placement options.  And my wife wouldn't strangle me dead with my own intestines for bringing them home.

 

Regardless, I will keep my eyes open for good used values in Klipsch, and hopefully will get a chance to listen to some classics.