What are your thoughts on Expensive tubes?

[derrickdj1]

There are a lot of tubes to choose from and some are cheap and others, expensive.  Is it worth the extra bucks and can you really hear much of a difference.  A good example is:  EL Black Sable for $89 vs Tug-Sol $22.  There are even some very expensive tubes for over $200-400.  I have also heard if the amp is not vintage, just use a modern tube made today instead of a NOS tube.  Well, let's hear your thoughts.

 

[IB Slammin]

12 minutes ago, derrickdj1 said:

There are a lot of tubes to choose from and some are cheap and others, expensive.  Is it worth the extra bucks and can you really hear much of a difference.  A good example is:  EL Black Sable for $89 vs Tug-Sol $22.  There are even some very expensive tubes for over $200-400.  I have also heard if the amp is not vintage, just use a modern tube made today instead of a NOS tube.  Well, let's hear your thoughts.

  I run only two expensive tubes. (NOS/NIB) They are worth every dime.    Could it be that premium tubes are more important in the front end than in a power amp???

tc

 

[Ski Bum]

Tube cost has definitely influenced what I've chosen to mess around with.  The outrageous cost of some tubes (not amps, but just individual tubes) is so ridiculous that it makes me really appreciate the alternatives we have to choose from.  For example, Maynard's designs that use obscure, dirt cheap tubes are dope.

[jimjimbo]

I love my vintage tube amps, don't get me wrong… But there is a tremendous amount of thought that needs to be put into what tubes you are going to install in your amps. For instance, there are probably at least five or six different designations of a Telefunken 12ax7. Halo getters, bent getters, D getters, etc, etc, etc. Smooth plates, ribbed plates, black plates, gray plates,… and, for all of those various combinations the prices vary wildly. I guess I'm not answering your question very well, but I suppose that just like anything else it takes a bit of experience and trial and error to figure out what sounds good to you…The same tube in two different amps may sound quite different.  I will say that I've been pretty lucky in my tube choices and purchases for my Mac amps.  I recently purchased a pair of 12au7's from Paul79, that were more than I would normally spend, but it was totally worth it.

[Schu]

For me... there is only one way to tell. That is to get the tube/tubes and try them whether they are expensive or cheap. But suffice to say, that my expensive tubes sound significantly different than my cheap tubes.

Here is the rub though, if I only had cheap tubes, would I really miss the difference? I mainly do back to back tests so hearing the difference is fairly easy... if I only had the cheap tube, I probably would be oblivious to any differences.

[tube fanatic]

56 minutes ago, Schu said:

For me... there is only one way to tell. That is to get the tube/tubes and try them whether they are expensive or cheap. But suffice to say, that my expensive tubes sound significantly different than my cheap tubes.

Here is the rub though, if I only had cheap tubes, would I really miss the difference? I mainly do back to back tests so hearing the difference is fairly easy... if I only had the cheap tube, I probably would be oblivious to any differences.

Have you tried that evaluation blind and level matched?  The conclusions drawn sometimes defy expectations.  I used to do such experiments with exotic speaker cables and folks sometimes chose twisted bell wire at a few cents/foot over megabuck "garden hose!"

 

Maynard

[muel]

Cost doesn't always tell you anything.  There is a reason why the cost gets driven up on a given tube but it might not be the best solution for your given application.  I'd suggest asking the same question but with a specific amp or preamp in mind.  I've rolled a bunch of tubes in the half dozen or so tube systems I've had.  Some matter more than others IMHO.

[Wardsweb]

Good tubes can cost more , but tubes that cost more are not necessarily good tubes.

[derrickdj1]

IB Slammin did mention that the preamp  tubes may add more flavor to the sound than power tubes.  That makes sense and preamp tubes are usually a bit cheaper.  This also saves a step since the bias does not need to be adjusted again.  Demand for some of the older NOS tubes is reflected in the higher price.

 

Jim graciously offered to brings some tubes to the NW Indiana GTG this Sat. to try out.  Hopefully I can pick the brains of a few guys at the GTG on their tube gear.  We are hoping to get a few tube amps at the GTG to hear the difference between the various types of tube amps.

[Schu]

5 hours ago, tube fanatic said:

Have you tried that evaluation blind and level matched?  The conclusions drawn sometimes defy expectations.  I used to do such experiments with exotic speaker cables and folks sometimes chose twisted bell wire at a few cents/foot over megabuck "garden hose!"

 

Maynard

I think double blind testing is over rated...

 

I am a reasonably intelligent person that is in search of better sound and nothing clouds that judgment, and that includes the purchase price of whatever is being evaluated. As a matter of fact, I may indeed be more critical of something that has a much tighter price to performance ratio.

 

I have a way of looking at things in a much lower polarized fashion... in that, I dont see black and white, but shades of gray. This usually leads me to conclusions that tube A is NOT better than tube B... just different. 

 

Being able to accurately describe and implement those differences is what is key to me. I may actually change out tubes to customize the sound for a listening session.

 

 

[tube fanatic]

9 hours ago, Schu said:

 

 

This usually leads me to conclusions that tube A is NOT better than tube B... just different. 

 

Being able to accurately describe and implement those differences is what is key to me. I may actually change out tubes to customize the sound for a listening session.

 

 

That's a point of view I can agree with.  What makes that an impossible situation from a recommendation standpoint is that there's no way to predict how a particular tube will sound in a particular piece of equipment.  Anyone who rolls tubes must understand this.  Also, many are easily duped by ludicrous claims such as the shape of a getter greatly affecting the "sound" of a tube.  The same for the heat dissipation alloys/coatings which cause a plate to be gray or black. That makes no difference. What may be causing a perceived difference in sound is that the interelectrode capacitances, due to slight differences in element spacing, are interacting with circuit components to change frequency response slightly.

 

Maynard  

[derrickdj1]

Tubedepot has a Tung-Sol black lable 12AX7 for $100 and a Raytheon black label for $600.  I doubt that the $600 tube is going to sound that much different than the $100 tube. I am assuming the difference is related to deman and small  supply that makes one tube cost 6X as much.

 

I can understand that various amps are different and will interact with the tubes differently.

[NOSValves]

Vintage tube pricing is mostly do to with supply and demand...the tubes are is short supply, the demand is high so is the price.....in many cases a modern equivlant can sound pretty darn close.. The biggest difference I find is longevity and tolerances were much better in vintage tubes. For instance the mighty Telefunken 12AX7 I've tested thousands of these tubes in 50 year old used condition I bet 95% of them scored between 1900 and 2100 in my Hickok tube tester...that particular tube seems impossible to kill.

[audiowize]

Boy, it really depends on what you're using them for.  If you have a tube design that has a ton of global negative feedback, I find that the influence of the particular tubes used can be highly minimized.  This is going to apply to a lot of the common high power push-pull power amplifiers, as well as a lot of the clones of 1960's linestage/phono stage preamps.

 

In a zero feedback or low feedback design, these tube-to-tube performance and sound differences can come through more audibly, and a fair number of them can even be measured.  Some time ago, I think it was Pete Millett who took power and distortion readings of some obscure pentode that had several different variations of internal construction, and there were measurable and consistent differences between each of them. 

[tube fanatic]

Craig is right about the longevity of the old stock small signal tubes.  It's rare to ever find one go bad.  I can't count the number of radios and communications receivers going back to the 30s which I've repaired/restored in which the original oscillator, driver/detector, and IF amplifier tubes were still just fine.  These tubes had to have tens of thousands of hours of use on them. Even in vintage amps, having to replace tubes like the 12AX7 has been a very rare occurrence for me.

 

35 minutes ago, audiowize said:

Boy, it really depends on what you're using them for.  If you have a tube design that has a ton of global negative feedback, I find that the influence of the particular tubes used can be highly minimized.  This is going to apply to a lot of the common high power push-pull power amplifiers, as well as a lot of the clones of 1960's linestage/phono stage preamps.

 

In a zero feedback or low feedback design, these tube-to-tube performance and sound differences can come through more audibly, and a fair number of them can even be measured.  Some time ago, I think it was Pete Millett who took power and distortion readings of some obscure pentode that had several different variations of internal construction, and there were measurable and consistent differences between each of them. 

 

These are good points as well.  One doesn't even have to look for obscure pentodes to find significant construction differences.  The entire 6L6 family of tubes is notorious for having large production tolerance variations in the spacing of the screen grid relative to G1 and G3.

 

Maynard