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Tarheel TJ

Replacing the K400 with the 11"x17" ZXPC Horn

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Another interesting and cheap 2" horn.
Difficult to see if there's a diffraction slot, but it seems to narrow progressively towards the throat.

It's conveniently big, like the ZXPC 11x17 and 10x18.

This one's about 16x16 Inches.

 

60x40.thumb.jpg.b7fbaa1ecefde88adf0779dd0d6f90b9.jpg

Edited by ARX
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It's slightly deeper compared to my B&C horns, but it's mouth circumference is about 50% bigger, which should reduce the ripple caused by an undersized mouth.
It should also easily load the driver to 600Hz and provide pattern control to (presumably below) 1000Hz. 

 

Some plots of the smaller B&C:

 

ME60_Horizontal.png.fc5e34afd4cd0fc06d3a9f28182edcc8.png

 

ME60_Vertical.png.f1cf575b56140486a477d586e67ce474.png

 

1716501082_DE75ME60.thumb.jpg.573d4ff7bbb4b10dd89b09647c3a65f4.jpg

Edited by ARX

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ZXPC sells this horn as 60x60 degree 2" Exit Square Horn Bolt On 16" x 16" , though according to my original source it's 60x40.

 

Anyway, more images have been uploaded by ZXPC. A diffraction slot is clearly visible, but it's reasonably smooth.

 

 

718418579_2InchExitSquareHornBoltOn16x16Inch_7.thumb.jpg.5b5c1ca44183066073db37f7b33b8d41.jpg

 

 

730278243_2InchExitSquareHornBoltOn16x16Inch_6.thumb.jpg.01b16255403efad0a841f832384ec34d.jpg

 

443943421_2InchExitSquareHornBoltOn16x16Inch_5.thumb.jpg.a04c3af5357df4aa6810c4587937e959.jpg

 

 

 

293485303_2InchExitSquareHornBoltOn16x16Inch_4.thumb.jpg.73506a040178b4061761022853cda825.jpg

 

1151990024_2InchExitSquareHornBoltOn16x16Inch_3.thumb.jpg.2c7c9994b0d3ff099368234f7fabc509.jpg

 

539639566_2InchExitSquareHornBoltOn16x16Inch_2.thumb.jpg.a0345978acf6b07850fd778ea70f884f.jpg

Edited by ARX

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A diffraction slot isn't necessarily a bad thing.

One of the very best, smoothest and most unhorn-like sounding horns I know is this:

 

h100.thumb.jpg.2f17e1735440db34126cb27fadc6d4f2.jpg

 

 

H100.gif.db8cda3d205afa2b0ed653d904ec017b.gif

 

There's a diffraction slot, but it's small and smooth.

If you need a small horn for a 1" driver (particularly B&C and BMS), try this one. 
I think it beats nearly every other horn or waveguide available and I am not alone in this.

 

Almost forgot: it's the RCF H 100

 

Edited by ARX

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I believe that it's this horn: https://www.parts-express.com/rcf-h100-1-horn-90x75-3-4-bolt--294-802  ( Note that Part Express in the US has discontinued carrying it.)

Here is the same thing at ebay: https://www.ebay.com/p/RCF-H100-watt-channel-Live-Sound-Monitor/22012056182

 

It's been my experience that the distance from the compression driver mounting surface/throat exit to the beginning of the diffraction slot is actually something to pay attention to.  Most of the older diffraction slot horns use an extended diffraction slot distance, while newer diffraction slot horns do not.  If you think about the creation of higher order modes (HOMs) within that distance from the acoustic center of the compression driver to the diffraction slot, what you get with a long diffraction slot path length is a lower frequency at which the HOMs are supported, very much like a tuned tube.  If the diffraction slot is immediately encountered at the beginning of horn, this seems to eliminate the audible "frying bacon" sound HOMs. 

 

YMMV.

 

Chris

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Tarheel TJ.... may have asked you before but what part of NC?  Great thread and ideas from everyone.  You probably have seen the speakers my bud bluesboy and I built some ten years ago.  We were really wanting to get rid of the K400 too.  He built a pair of LS/Altec for me and Khorn/Altec for himself.  The top hat being moveable is a big plus.

IMG_1591.JPG

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3 hours ago, Chris A said:

I believe that it's this horn: https://www.parts-express.com/rcf-h100-1-horn-90x75-3-4-bolt--294-802  ( Note that Part Express in the US has discontinued carrying it.)

Here is the same thing at ebay: https://www.ebay.com/p/RCF-H100-watt-channel-Live-Sound-Monitor/22012056182

 

It's been my experience that the distance from the compression driver mounting surface/throat exit to the beginning of the diffraction slot is actually something to pay attention to.  Most of the older diffraction slot horns use an extended diffraction slot distance, while newer diffraction slot horns do not.  If you think about the creation of higher order modes (HOMs) within that distance from the acoustic center of the compression driver to the diffraction slot, what you get with a long diffraction slot path length is a lower frequency at which the HOMs are supported, very much like a tuned tube.  If the diffraction slot is immediately encountered at the beginning of horn, this seems to eliminate the audible "frying bacon" sound HOMs. 

 

YMMV.

 

Chris

 

So true Chris. Besides the path length, the smoothness and width of the slot is also significant. If the incoming wavefront is squeezed through a very narrow and sharp-edgded slot, HOMs will be created. Moreover, bigger horns with such diffraction slots negatively affect low frequency reproduction. Remember the P. Audio PH-4525 and the like.

 

The response and polars of the RCF H 100 with the ND1411-M driver (a B&C, BMS or Celestion driver works even better with this horn):

 

1571279264_RCFH100_ResponsePolars.thumb.png.de3c007217027a9b64a142483094316a.png

 

Edited by ARX

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15 hours ago, ARX said:

Another interesting and cheap 2" horn.
 

This one's about 16x16 Inches.

 

Thanks for bringing this to our attention. Could be a good horn for some applications. Personally, I like the more rectangular shapes as candidates for replacing the K-400, because they have a visual resemblance to the original style of the Heritage design. 

 

New ideas, products and graphs are always welcome and fun to read about.

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I have 4 of the 18x10s thanks to Chris recommending them to me. I will be starting my Belle bass bins in the next week(I was on vacation and got sick, and I have not fully recovered yet), and hope to be able to listen to these by  early December.s I see the recommendation of a baffle...how big should it be? BTW, I will be using EV DH1As too. I just need to buy one more, and I am set for all 7  channels.

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6 hours ago, ARX said:

Besides the path length, the smoothness and width of the slot is also significant. If the incoming wavefront is squeezed through a very narrow and sharp-edgded slot, HOMs will be created.

 

I have a pair of JBL 2365 horn, and the 2 inch entry goes down to a 7/8 inch slot. I know Clause used one version of that series (2360 maybe) and liked it a lot. Then again, in a home setting, most won't be running the volume as high as for where they were designed.

 

Bruce

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13 hours ago, Khornukopia said:

 

Thanks for bringing this to our attention. Could be a good horn for some applications. Personally, I like the more rectangular shapes as candidates for replacing the K-400, because they have a visual resemblance to the original style of the Heritage design. 

 

New ideas, products and graphs are always welcome and fun to read about.

 

I've learned a lot from info, experiments, experience, knowledge that people share on this forum.
I guess, that's what it's all about: learning by sharing in order to maximize (mutual) joy 😊

The rectangular horns, specifically the ZXPC 11x17 and 10x18, are presumably 2 of the best cheap replacement horns. 
I'll probably join the club and buy a pair of 10x18 horns and lucky me, there's an online store on my continent that sells 'em .

If anyone has used these with B&C drivers, I would like to get your opinion.

Edited by ARX

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10 hours ago, Marvel said:

 

I have a pair of JBL 2365 horn, and the 2 inch entry goes down to a 7/8 inch slot. I know Clause used one version of that series (2360 maybe) and liked it a lot. Then again, in a home setting, most won't be running the volume as high as for where they were designed.

 

Bruce

 

Hi Bruce, it seems these gigantic Bi-Radial horns from JBL, Community etc. are a special breed.
The honky-ringing-frying-egg-sound is something I remember from overdriven fullrange cabs or hornloaded stacks in clubs and at festivals during the 80's and 90's.

The 2360, 2365 and 2366 are cinema horns. These are so efficient that potential unpleasant side effects hardly ever come into play at home.

 

Despite their age, I bet, the moment you listen to a Jeff Lynne track - or something similar -  through these....you'll have a big grin on your face.

 

 

4520+2365.jpg

Edited by ARX

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Found a tiny drawing of the 18x10. Had to magnify and clean it a little.

 

191871866_18x10Drawing_300_Sharpened.thumb.jpg.7a617d107a601521edf53862ec95eb1b.jpg

 

 

For those interested in the RCF and other small horns. Well made clones are available from China.

 


847547216_15-inch-speaker-horn-RCF2510-for-home-theater-loudspeaker-professional-audio-RCF-type-free-shipping(2).thumb.jpg.64a7240c89fd0dd7a46d2cfa66224e23.jpg

 

710914536_15-inch-speaker-horn-RCF2510-for-home-theater-loudspeaker-professional-audio-RCF-type-free-shipping(1).thumb.jpg.5c0f2c1e4aca49ec40bbd3f28264597f.jpg
 

 

1662034063_15-inch-speaker-horn-RCF2510-for-home-theater-loudspeaker-professional-audio-RCF-type-free-shipping(3).thumb.jpg.e1bd1ca44997dc448d85fc52ff252019.jpg

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On 11/3/2018 at 8:07 AM, Tarheel said:

 

 

Tarheel TJ.... may have asked you before but what part of NC?  Great thread and ideas from everyone.  You probably have seen the speakers my bud bluesboy and I built some ten years ago.  We were really wanting to get rid of the K400 too.  He built a pair of LS/Altec for me and Khorn/Altec for himself.  The top hat being moveable is a big plus.

IMG_1591.JPG

Tarheel,  I am in Winston-Salem.  Hit me up if you are ever in the area.  I posted this in a different thread, but I should probably update it here too.  I am now using my ZXPC 17x11 horn in a bi-amped setup (really tri-amped if you count the THT sub).  I have a MiniDSP 4x10 feeding a Latino ST-70 on the highs and a Dayton SS amp on the lows.  Best sound I have ever heard.  Took me quote a while to get things dialed in and EQ'ed (big thanks to Chris A for helping with this), but the results are fantastic.  I would love to have a pair of K-402 horns, but for $80/pair vs. $2000 for the 402s, I am very happy with what I have.

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Thanks.  I am in Wilmington but would love to hear your system if I'm ever in your area.  Bet it sounds great. 

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The ZXPC 17x11 is a "white-label" Selenium HL4750-SLF. Probably from the same Brazilian factory, but at 1/5 of the list price of the Selenium.

Even with the clearance at PE, $95 is a substantial premium for a sticker.

 

Here's the specsheet:

 

hl4750-spf-spec-sheet.thumb.jpg.e9a5bb8e245e5ccba961bd80d00c8751.jpg

 

 

Edited by ARX

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The ZXPC 18x10, PRV WG45, VFM/FS-Audio are identical and likely produced by the same Chinese Manufacturer.

 

In view of my question regarding performance of these horns with B&C drivers, I suspect these horns were actually designed for the massively cloned older 2" B&C drivers.
I won't flood the forum with images, but I found dozens of these drivers on taobao and other sites.

 

These are VFM Horns with the matching drivers, both made by FS-Audio:

 

261272648_FSAudioHornsDrivers_28.thumb.jpg.58680916b10fea9d97647d6029dd7461.jpg

 

 

The other side of the driver:

 

COMP-72Z2-50_2.jpg.49c1b0ad28d5270491d8e39780387dc0.jpg

 

Edited by ARX

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@Tarheel:  that's an elegant combination. The organic warmth of the wood(panels) goes nicely with the black horns.

 

 

Finally, a "pièce de résistance".
I don't think I have ever seen this horn before. It might as well be produced by the same manufacturer as the ZXPC 17x11/Selenium HL4750-SLF, because they share the typical protruding mouth.

 

 

2inch-horn-abs-44x29x20cm_1.jpg.3289a5655f22fd10547e1196f2dbfe03.jpg

 

 

2inch-horn-abs-44x29x20cm_2.jpg.724ab99f9aa7360e654dba838b8966da.jpg

 

2 things I particularly like about this horn:

- The size: 44x29x20cm

- The throat: There's a diffraction slot, but it seems small, short, reasonably smooth and there's no narrowing as with the other big horn, shown earlier. It actually has a lot in common with the "slots" in highly regarded BEM/FEM optimized horns from RCF, B&C, Beyma and other brands. Except these horns are usually much smaller.


It's unlikely this horn provides much loading below 600Hz (it's too short). However, the generous size together with the diffraction slot, as well as the high expansion rate and the nearly conical walls, should allow decent pattern control.

 

Edited by ARX
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