mikebse2a3 Posted October 22, 2016 Share Posted October 22, 2016 3 hours ago, Deang said: I think "low wattage users" should consider buying something that has more than 3.5wpc. Good grief. Friends don't let friends buy wimpy amplifiers. I think they shouldn't by the ALK "swamping networks" .... IMHO "Good grief" miketn Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mark1101 Posted October 22, 2016 Share Posted October 22, 2016 Mike, You make a pretty good case for the very low watt amps. I think your math was correct. However, I have been using the swamped ALKs for probably 10-12 years with different horns and drivers,and found they can support just about anything. I prefer the extreme slope versions myself. I am using these networks with an outboard EQ on the tape monitor loop and with higher powered amplifier such as 60 wpc VRD tube amps, and Mac MC250 and 2100 (50 and 100 wpc). I am interested in any comments you may have concerning this application. This is the same combination Roy demo'd to us in Hope on a Jub vs. the active version he had at the time on the other Jub. I do remember we listened to this for quite a while. It was a solution a few of us had been using and brought it to Roy to try. If you remember he used my DBX 1231 EQ to correct the FR of the 402 with the Jub in the chamber. It was unable to exactly match the digital crossover response but came very close. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marvel Posted October 22, 2016 Share Posted October 22, 2016 47 minutes ago, Deang said: Friends don't let friends buy wimpy amplifiers. It's a good thing I already had mine... 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mikebse2a3 Posted October 22, 2016 Share Posted October 22, 2016 2 hours ago, mark1101 said: Mike, You make a pretty good case for the very low watt amps. I think your math was correct. Thanks Mark.... 2 hours ago, mark1101 said: However, I have been using the swamped ALKs for probably 10-12 years with different horns and drivers,and found they can support just about anything. I prefer the extreme slope versions myself. I am using these networks with an outboard EQ on the tape monitor loop and with higher powered amplifier such as 60 wpc VRD tube amps, and Mac MC250 and 2100 (50 and 100 wpc). I am interested in any comments you may have concerning this application. This is the same combination Roy demo'd to us in Hope on a Jub vs. the active version he had at the time on the other Jub. I do remember we listened to this for quite a while. It was a solution a few of us had been using and brought it to Roy to try. If you remember he used my DBX 1231 EQ to correct the FR of the 402 with the Jub in the chamber. It was unable to exactly match the digital crossover response but came very close. Mark I assume you are wanting to stay analog only in this system and my comments are based on this assumption. Obviously so far what you are doing is working out well for your specific applications. I also prefer the extreme slope filters whenever possible. Your amp choices have the power reserve needed for your application. Applying any frequency spectrum correction in front of the amplifier by using an EQ is a wise choice IMO for your application. The possible drawbacks in your situation using the passive network: The inability to change the crossover point. You could someday find that the optimum crossover region other than the one your network provides could be needed. No Time Alignment capability which can offer a further improvement in the crossover region. I do remember the demo and it did offer a close sound reproduction to the active setup. miketn 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Deang Posted October 22, 2016 Share Posted October 22, 2016 1 hour ago, mikebse2a3 said: You make a pretty good case for the very low watt amps... Work great for tweeters. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Don Richard Posted October 24, 2016 Share Posted October 24, 2016 And headphones. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Schu Posted October 24, 2016 Share Posted October 24, 2016 Is there any influence in the fact that a passive XO is "black" by nature, and an active requires/introduces energy in the form electricity? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chris A Posted October 24, 2016 Share Posted October 24, 2016 1 hour ago, Schu said: Is there any influence in the fact that a passive XO is "black" by nature, and an active requires/introduces energy in the form electricity? See https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Audio_crossover#Classification_based_on_components "Black" is an interesting audiophile meme. I don't know what it means. I do know that the use of active crossovers eliminates a set of components between your drivers and your amplifiers--components that change their behavior with age and with load (i.e., voice coil and passive component heating). Amplifiers on the other hand like to be direct coupled to drivers; they have much more trouble with passive reactance inserted into their load loop. I've never seen a hi-fi sound reproduction system without amplifiers...or acoustic drivers. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Don Richard Posted October 24, 2016 Share Posted October 24, 2016 5 hours ago, Schu said: Is there any influence in the fact that a passive XO is "black" by nature, and an active requires/introduces energy in the form electricity? Passive crossovers waste energy, which isn't a big deal if you have the power to waste. 40 watts active sounds as loud as 100 watts into the same speaker passively crossed. A person could build a line level passive crossover that would look schematically like a loudspeaker crossover, except that the caps and inductors would be smaller values, thus cheaper. If you want to try some boutique caps they will be more affordable. Time alignment can be done by physically moving the drivers, if possible. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pauln Posted October 25, 2016 Share Posted October 25, 2016 I vaguely recall the "horns love tubes" thing with respect the speakers having a rising impedance with frequency (typical of horns). The rising impedance with frequency was supposed to have a nice "taming the horns" effect when used with tube amps - in the high mid-range where too much is most noticeable... some kind of synergy resulting in a naturally well behaved frequency response (that was nicer than when using solid state, for which the tonal balance was not originally designed?). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
djk Posted October 25, 2016 Share Posted October 25, 2016 "A passive crossover requires no power at all" Incorrect. The loss is in the ESR of the caps, and the DCR of the woofer inductor. The loss in the woofer inductor is quite high on old type 'A' and 'B' networks, enough to be significant with flea-powered triode amps. Some of the newer networks were designed for high DCR inductors though, and the DCR should not be changed. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Don Richard Posted October 26, 2016 Share Posted October 26, 2016 10 hours ago, RoboNerd said: You guys just don't get it! You get on here a ***** about the loss of a tiny fraction of a watt of power in an inductor or in ALK's swamping resistor while every night-light in every room of your house sucks up 7W. Every incandescent light in your house generates more heat then light. Every electronic device in your house that has an on/off on it's remote control is drawing power 24 / 7. If you have a satellite receiver it is running continuously just to retain the channel guide. Every room in your house is a comfortable 72 degrees even when you are not in it. How may Watts is that wasting? GET REAL and move on! The nerd. You apparently do not realize that none of these devices are audio components. You are the one who needs to "get real". The reality is that every passive crossover has insertion losses. Using a passive crossover with swamping resistor(s) eats power in the crossover region, possibly doubling current draw from the amplifier. This will cause distortion if one is using flea powered amplification and playing too loudly. This is not about additional current draw from the wall socket. It's about current draw from the amplifier. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
djk Posted October 26, 2016 Share Posted October 26, 2016 "INCORRECT AND IRRELEVANT! " Calculate the loss on the woofer inductor on a K33E in the Klipsch networks and get back to me with your apology. (It is significant for low powered amp users) 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
brians7 Posted October 27, 2016 Share Posted October 27, 2016 Is this Dennis Klich posting on here? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mkane Posted October 29, 2016 Author Share Posted October 29, 2016 Back from vacation and realized I started something.Good or bad, don 't know. I'll just enjoy what I have which is a pair of awesome crossovers were really enjoying. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sunnysal Posted October 30, 2016 Share Posted October 30, 2016 hopefully robo nerd will take a powder or at least learn some online etiquette. calling bullshit on basic electronic principals is plain stupid. he may claim that the losses are not significant or audible in his opinion but not call bullshit. I have noticed the site degrading over time as most everything becomes a quick tempered, almost religiously charged atmosphere. glad to see that the old timers stick around to post even in this environment. T 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marvel Posted October 30, 2016 Share Posted October 30, 2016 I'm not going anywhere... Hope all is well down south of the equator, Tony. Bruce Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Deang Posted October 30, 2016 Share Posted October 30, 2016 Troll. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moderators Travis In Austin Posted October 30, 2016 Moderators Share Posted October 30, 2016 How's everybody doing in here today? Just popping in to check out the view. Enjoy your Sunday. Travis Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mike stehr Posted October 30, 2016 Share Posted October 30, 2016 4 hours ago, RoboNerd said: I just looked up the specifications on the 2A3 vacuum tube. The filament requires 2.5V at 2.5 amps to light it. That is 6 1/4Watts of power WASTED! No surprise. Single-ended directly heated triode amplifiers are the some of the most inefficient amp circuits out there with regard to wasted heat and power. But to some it's worth that wasted energy for the class A directly heated triode sound. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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