jimjimbo Posted October 10, 2016 Share Posted October 10, 2016 As those who attended the Chicago get together yesterday at Derrick's can probably attest, I am not particularly knowledgeable about subs, but after hearing Derrick's system, I would like to try incorporating a sub into my Khorn, La Scala setup. I mean, obviously this is very simplistic compared to Derrick's amazing setup, but I think my two channel system can (probably) benefit from incorporating a sub. Here is some basic info first: Source is Oppo 105D BDP (inputs from cable receiver, apple TV, USB audio) Mains output is from Stereo L/R Amplifiers are Mcintosh MC 30's, Scott LK 150, Mcintosh MC 240 - only one set runs at a time. Speakers are Khorns (updated AA crossovers, K33 woofers, CT120 tweets, K55V dual phase plug mids), and La Scala's, same config as Khorns. Oppo 105D - Mains currently set to Large (no bass management) Can set Mains to small with bass management Has configurable crossover points of 40,50,60,70,80, 90, 100, 110, 120, 130, 140, 150, 160, 200, 250 HZ Has a single mono sub out which I will then split with a Y connector to the sub Subs available (granted, both are older and not top tier) (Best choice of the two for the Khorns and La Scala?) (Yea, I know, save my money for something better.....) Definitive Technology Powerfield 1500 15 inch driver Frequency Response: 15-125 Hz Amplifier: 250 watts RMS High Pass filter 12 dB/octave selectable (50 or 100 cycles) Low Pass filter 36 dB/octave continuously variable (50-100 cycles) Phase control 0-180 degrees Velodyne CHT-15 15 inch driver, bass reflex Frequency Response: 23-120 Hz Amplifier: 300 watts RMS High Pass filter 6 dB/octave selectable (80 or 100 cycles) Low Pass filter 12 dB/octave continuously variable (40-120 cycles) Phase control 0-180 degrees Placement is not possible in the front, so will be to the right side of the listening position. So, a couple of questions.....which of the two would be best (simply based on specs I guess....) Considering that the Oppo has configurable crossover points, where should the Oppo be set and where should the sub high pass and low pass crossovers be set? (I'm guessing they should be the same?) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wvu80 Posted October 10, 2016 Share Posted October 10, 2016 I would be very surprised if the Def Tech could dig down to 15 Hz with any authority with only a 250 watt amp. Since I don't have experience with either sub, just try one and see how it sounds. The crossover point is fairly standard, 80 Hz. It is at this point that sound becomes omni-directional. Most people don't like to cross over much higher than that because they don't want music or voices coming out of the sub. Set the phase to 0 degrees, but that won't matter as long as you run one sub. I like to physically set my sub at 80 Hz with the knob, but most people will suggest you set it as high as it will go which is usually 120 Hz and let your AVR or receiver set the 80 Hz point. +++ It has only been in the last few years that I have come to the conclusion that all systems can benefit from a sub. I am a jazz guy and I used to think deep bass was irrelevant. Now I think a sub can reinforce the low end and give a nice full sound at low volume, chest thump at higher volume. Both good. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
derrickdj1 Posted October 10, 2016 Share Posted October 10, 2016 Hi Jim, the subs you have will certainly work with the Khorn's. Now will this be for mostly 2 ch? You Oppo is top notch and should be find for running things. You ask me to adjust the volume on my BDP and I looked baffled, lol. Evidently the Oppo has something that my BDP is missing. I am thinking, if possibel why not use both subs if there is space. A Mini DSP may be needed. You can setting things up for now and see how you like the sound before considering a Mini DSP. If one is needed, I can always drop by and help you set things ups since you live fairly close. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CECAA850 Posted October 10, 2016 Share Posted October 10, 2016 2 channel with your set up? I'd go horn loaded like an F-20 or 2. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jimjimbo Posted October 10, 2016 Author Share Posted October 10, 2016 4 minutes ago, CECAA850 said: 2 channel with your set up? I'd go horn loaded like an F-20 or 2. Carl is always trying to spend my money....what little there is..... Dave, I agree with you about the Def Tech not actually able to go that low....I've read that several times in other places. You said: I like to physically set my sub at 80 Hz with the knob, but most people will suggest you set it as high as it will go which is usually 120 Hz and let your AVR or receiver set the 80 Hz point. What would be the benefit of this? I'm not really looking for "deep" bass, but just a bit of extra fullness, especially for the La Scala's. If I find I don't need the sub for the Khorns, I can always switch it off. Derrick, I only have a good spot for one of them, so I think I'll try the Velodyne first. Yes, two channel only. Yes, my Oppo does have a volume control which is VERY handy in several ways, but of course with the remote, it's great. The internal DAC is stellar, so I use the unit quite a bit. The settings and the crossover points is what I was mainly concerned with....don't want to have a mismatch between the Oppo and sub, and then have to battle to figure out what's going on.... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CECAA850 Posted October 10, 2016 Share Posted October 10, 2016 Just now, jimjimbo said: Carl is always trying to spend my money....what little there is..... Actually it's a DIY so I'm SAVING you money. You REALLY want horn loaded bass with your set up Jim. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jimjimbo Posted October 10, 2016 Author Share Posted October 10, 2016 5 minutes ago, CECAA850 said: You REALLY want horn loaded bass with your set up Jim. Carl, I absolutely agree with you. What's going to happen of course is that I will get the sub that I currently have set up in my system, find that I like the enhancement, and then want to upgrade the sub....so don't worry, I'll get there! As I said though, I'm not looking for a massive bass presence, and don't want a giant, hulking sub unit in my room, so I would like something that will fit within the parameters of the two subs I currently have, which is pretty much a square cube of 21"X 21" X 21". I could go slightly larger, but not much. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TasDom Posted October 10, 2016 Share Posted October 10, 2016 10 hours ago, jimjimbo said: Source is Oppo 105D BDP (inputs from cable receiver, apple TV, USB audio) Mains output is from Stereo L/R Amplifiers are Mcintosh MC 30's, Scott LK 150, Mcintosh MC 240 - only one set runs at a time. Speakers are Khorns (updated AA crossovers, K33 woofers, CT120 tweets, K55V dual phase plug mids), and La Scala's, same config as Khorns. Oppo 105D - Mains currently set to Large (no bass management) Can set Mains to small with bass management IIRC, there is no bass management if you are using the USB DAC input of the OPPO Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Paducah Home Theater Posted October 10, 2016 Share Posted October 10, 2016 21 minutes ago, jimjimbo said: You said: I like to physically set my sub at 80 Hz with the knob, but most people will suggest you set it as high as it will go which is usually 120 Hz and let your AVR or receiver set the 80 Hz point. What would be the benefit of this? The benefit is having a proper crossover slope. If you set the crossover at 80 on the sub as well as the receiver, you're exponentially making the crossover act more like a brick wall. In a typical receiver the slope may only be like 6 db per octave but on a sub it is steeper, then the two in conjunction is much steeper. In the meantime, your mains do have the proper slope, but now the subs do not. It usually sounds better with only the receiver if possible. You can use both if you have upper boominess that you are trying to kill or something but it's not ideal, and of course if you're feeding the sub a full range signal, you don't have a choice. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TasDom Posted October 10, 2016 Share Posted October 10, 2016 1 minute ago, Tasdom said: IIRC, there is no bass management if you are using the USB DAC input of the OPPO https://www.oppodigital.com/KnowledgeBase.aspx?prodID=BDP-105D "Note: Bass management is not available when using the USB DAC input. When Stereo Signal is set to Down-mixed Stereo, the settings within Speaker Configuration do not apply to the player's dedicated stereo outputs, which means that setting the speaker sizes to Small in Speaker Configuration will have no impact on the dedicated stereo outputs. However, in order to configure the player to output "double bass", you will still need to set the speaker sizes to Small in Speaker Configuration in order to utilize a subwoofer with content that does not have a dedicated .1 or LFE track. In this case, the Crossover setting is redirecting bass frequencies to the subwoofer that would normally be output from the FL and FR outputs of the multi-channel analog section. As long as Stereo Signal is set to Down-mixed Stereo, setting the speaker sizes to Small in Speaker Configuration will not engage bass management for the dedicated stereo outputs. Bass management will only be active for the multi-channel analog outputs." Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jimjimbo Posted October 10, 2016 Author Share Posted October 10, 2016 7 minutes ago, Tasdom said: IIRC, there is no bass management if you are using the USB DAC input of the OPPO I can't find anything in the user guide that states that. Not sure why this would be relevant to the speaker settings.....? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jimjimbo Posted October 10, 2016 Author Share Posted October 10, 2016 8 minutes ago, MetropolisLakeOutfitters said: The benefit is having a proper crossover slope. If you set the crossover at 80 on the sub as well as the receiver, you're exponentially making the crossover act more like a brick wall. In a typical receiver the slope may only be like 6 db per octave but on a sub it is steeper, then the two in conjunction is much steeper. In the meantime, your mains do have the proper slope, but now the subs do not. It usually sounds better with only the receiver if possible. You an use both if you have upper boominess that you are trying to kill or something but it's not ideal. OK, so just to be clear, you are saying that I should set the sub to it's highest setting, and set the Oppo to 80? Appreciate the confirmation. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Paducah Home Theater Posted October 10, 2016 Share Posted October 10, 2016 7 minutes ago, jimjimbo said: OK, so just to be clear, you are saying that I should set the sub to it's highest setting, and set the Oppo to 80? Appreciate the confirmation. Yes, typically that's what you'd do with a typical receiver. I can't specifically comment on the functionality of the Oppo though. You can try setting it to lower, like 60 and see if you like it there better. Also worth mentioning... keep in mind that your standard crossover point in the receiver typically has nothing to do with the LFE cutoff point. Just because your main crossover is set to 40, that doesn't mean that 120 hz LFE won't come through the sub. It's two different settings. But, if you set the sub's crossover as well, you are throwing all that material away. This is another big benefit of doing it this way. For two channel stuff though this doesn't matter. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jimjimbo Posted October 10, 2016 Author Share Posted October 10, 2016 40 minutes ago, Tasdom said: https://www.oppodigital.com/KnowledgeBase.aspx?prodID=BDP-105D "Note: Bass management is not available when using the USB DAC input. When Stereo Signal is set to Down-mixed Stereo, the settings within Speaker Configuration do not apply to the player's dedicated stereo outputs, which means that setting the speaker sizes to Small in Speaker Configuration will have no impact on the dedicated stereo outputs. However, in order to configure the player to output "double bass", you will still need to set the speaker sizes to Small in Speaker Configuration in order to utilize a subwoofer with content that does not have a dedicated .1 or LFE track. In this case, the Crossover setting is redirecting bass frequencies to the subwoofer that would normally be output from the FL and FR outputs of the multi-channel analog section. As long as Stereo Signal is set to Down-mixed Stereo, setting the speaker sizes to Small in Speaker Configuration will not engage bass management for the dedicated stereo outputs. Bass management will only be active for the multi-channel analog outputs." Thank you! I just went to the Knowlege Base and read more about it. Appreciate the input. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
derrickdj1 Posted October 10, 2016 Share Posted October 10, 2016 You are not using an avr? The LaScala's go down to around 50 Hz and the Khorn around 35 Hz. The LaScala will benefit the most from a sub. Turning the sub XO all the way up defeats it(basically taking it out of the equation). No need to worry about LFE or .1 channel since this is for 2 ch listening. https://www.madisoundspeakerstore.com/assembled-crossovers/minidsp-2x4-digital-signal-processor/?gclid=CLDtkZvA0M8CFQiJaQodNUoHUw The link is for a Mini DSP($115), that can basically do the basmanagement for you. You would set the XO to 80 Hz with a 24 dp slope and run the speakers set to small. This may sound confusing but, once the Mini DSP is setup, you will see these two controls on your computer screen. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chris A Posted October 10, 2016 Share Posted October 10, 2016 11 hours ago, jimjimbo said: So, a couple of questions.....which of the two would be best (simply based on specs I guess....) Both, of course. (Really.) Use an AV processor between the BDP-105 and the amplifiers, and use HDMI to connect, bypassing the analog outputs of the Oppo. Put one sub in a corner and the other along the mid-point of a wall. If you have a third sub, that could go almost anywhere along a wall. You'll hear the difference in coverage. You can use something like Audyssey to smooth the subs' response. 11 hours ago, jimjimbo said: where should the Oppo be set and where should the sub high pass and low pass crossovers be set? (I'm guessing they should be the same?) Below 40 Hz for the Khorns (or lower if possible), 60-80 Hz for the La Scalas, depending on how close you have them to room corners already. My AVP (Onkyo PR-SC886) will allow you to set the subwoofer crossover points separately for each channel (front left, center, front right, surround right, surround left, etc.). This is precisely why people use AVPs and AVRs. 1 hour ago, CECAA850 said: ...You REALLY want horn loaded bass with your set up Jim. Yes, but an AVP (extremely good ones are available used that are not very expensive and that have HDMI 1.3-- an example) solves the problem in the short term with bass management capabilities, and provides an excellent upgrade path with horn-loaded sub(s). Chris Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jimjimbo Posted October 10, 2016 Author Share Posted October 10, 2016 15 minutes ago, derrickdj1 said: You are not using an avr? No, not using an AVR. I've tried to maintain as simple a setup as possible (even though I've got many connections to different speaker pairs and vintage amps). The Oppo is the "central processor" if you will, the input from the cable box, Apple TV, USB input from laptop, and network connections, etc. The Oppo outputs the audio either from stereo jacks or multichannel jacks, and right now I have only the stereo audio output connected, which run to the input of a signal router, which allows me to then take the outputs of the signal router to any number of amps I desire. Here are images of the Oppo rear and the signal router. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chris A Posted October 10, 2016 Share Posted October 10, 2016 If you add anything to approximate bass management, it's no longer simple. I'm also not talking about an AVR...rather an AVP, and those are different animals, especially at the quality level shown above. This idea is that if you go out of the Oppo digitally (thus taking it out of the analog chain), then all the analog amplification is done by a much better preamp than what's in the Oppo, without using digital volume control, with really good DACs, and built-in room equalization--that you can easily use or simply turn off if it doesn't work as well for you (as I do). There are many very good reasons why I recommend an AVP...not the least of which is much better sound... Chris Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jason str Posted October 11, 2016 Share Posted October 11, 2016 Jim, you are welcome to try out my Table Tuba for a month or two so you can really hear the differences you gain using a horn loaded subwoofer with your horn loaded mains. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jimjimbo Posted October 11, 2016 Author Share Posted October 11, 2016 Thank you for the offer Jason, I'll give it some thought after I fool around with my configuration a bit.....We missed you on Saturday! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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