Audyssey Trims Bottomed Out for LaScalas and Subs

[RoboKlipsch]

Youthman you can and should be striving for near-equal response across all the seats.  The theater is dedicated and has plenty of firepower and a rectangular design which are all ideal for home theater.  

 

It takes a ton of measurements and hours of testing and tweaking to get every seat to sound good, but it's worth it imo.  

The shortcut for this, and imo probably worth it in your case because of the quality of your theater is to find a member who has an Audyssey Pro Kit, knows how to use it, and will help you optimize the system with the XT32 you already have.  In half a day you can optimize the room and also be 100% positive you've got the bass perfect too.  There are many more features with the Pro Kit and, you can also pick or modify the target curve.  For example if you're like Scrappy, the curve can have the 6db built in, or any other curve or perfectly flat.  The number of measurements can be up to 32 I believe, and in a quiet setting, there's no reason not to take more measurements.  You can repeat the same positions as needed, but it improves the accuracy when you do.  

 

The Audyssey recommendations, mine, Scrappy's, WVUs, everybody's...it's just a guess in any room.  You went so far building the theater to perfection, it deserves and really requires an equal effort to get it to sound as beautiful as it looks.  

 

 

[Youthman]

8 hours ago, babadono said:

Hey YM  volume/gain knobs are USUALLY not linear, just FYI.

Gotcha.  Thanks.

 

8 hours ago, CECAA850 said:

Another thing about horns and room correction microphones is that the horn needs to be pointed at the mic when doing your calibration.  Speakers that point away from the mic will give you some screwy readings.

The surrounds are not pointed directly at the mic, only the LaScala LCR.

[Youthman]

8 hours ago, RoboKlipsch said:

Youthman you can and should be striving for near-equal response across all the seats.  The theater is dedicated and has plenty of firepower and a rectangular design which are all ideal for home theater.  

Ideally yes, but the the reality is I can spend hundreds of hours to try and make tweaks to get that equal response when the vast majority it is me and my son and sometimes a few friends watching movies....none except me would even notice those changes.  Think of this community....we are in the vast minority who actually care about those tweaks and can actually appreciate them.  Prime example, I remember my wife once saying that the TV speakers sound just as good to her as my previous RF-83's. 

 

8 hours ago, RoboKlipsch said:

The shortcut for this, and imo probably worth it in your case because of the quality of your theater is to find a member who has an Audyssey Pro Kit, knows how to use it, and will help you optimize the system with the XT32 you already have.

That would certainly be welcomed if anyone wants to volunteer.

[wvu80]

8 hours ago, CECAA850 said:

Another thing about horns and room correction microphones is that the horn needs to be pointed at the mic when doing your calibration.  Speakers that point away from the mic will give you some screwy readings.  Direct radiating loudspeakers are a little more forgiving in that aspect.

 

This statement got by me the first time I read it.  Sorry about that.

 

The Onkyo version of Audyssey tells you to point the included mic STRAIGHT UP and to use a tripod of some sort, no boxes, and not on top of the seats.  It does make a difference because Audyssey is measuring not just the speaker but the room acoustics so it has to read the bounce off the walls, ceilings, furniture, etc.

 

Not disagreeing with you, my friend, I'm just one of those nerds who reads the manual cover to cover.  I'm just passing along the info. 

 

 

[garyrc]

On 10/12/2016 at 10:18 PM, garyrc said:

"Audyssey FAQ Linked Here"

"Audyssey FAQ Linked Here"

Youth,

 

You really need to read the article the link above will give you..   AVR manuals suck.

 

Is -12 the lowest trim setting on your AVR?  If so, if Audyssey sets a trim at -12, that's called "bottoming out," and you really don't know if Audyssey would set it even lower if it could.  Search "Ask Audyssey" for a way around this.

[Youthman]

4 minutes ago, garyrc said:

Youth,

 

You really need to read the article the link above will give you..   AVR manuals suck.

Funny cause I was actually just now reading through it.  I somehow missed the link in your previous post.

 

Yes, -12dB is the lowest trim.

 

5 minutes ago, garyrc said:

If so, if Audyssey sets a trim at -12, that's called "bottoming out," and you really don't know if Audyssey would set it even lower if it could.

Thus the point of this thread. 

[wvu80]

2 minutes ago, garyrc said:

You really need to read the article the link above will give you..   AVR manuals suck.

 

Is -12 the lowest trim setting on your AVR?  If so, if Audyssey sets a trim at -12, that's called "bottoming out," and you really don't know if Audyssey would set it even lower if it could.  Search "Ask Audyssey" for a way around this.

 

The -12 is the lowest on my Onk, and I also have heard what you suggested, the Onk might need to set the trim at -15 but -12 is as low as she goes.

+++

 

You also mentioned an FAQ.  I have tried to read some of those Audyssey threads on AVS.com, but holy cow there are THOUSANDS of posts and it's hard to find the information you want.  To make matters worse, the only thing HALF those "experts" can agree on is that the other half is wrong!  For me, it's really hard to know who to believe. 

 

I usually resolve those dilemmas by employing the West Virginia motto;

 

Good enough. 

[garyrc]

3 minutes ago, wvu80 said:

 

The -12 is the lowest on my Onk, and I also have heard what you suggested, the Onk might need to set the trim at -15 but -12 is as low as she goes.

+++

 

You also mentioned an FAQ.  I have tried to read some of those Audyssey threads on AVS.com, but holy cow there are THOUSANDS of posts and it's hard to find the information you want.  To make matters worse, the only thing HALF those "experts" can agree on is that the other half is wrong!  For me, it's really hard to know who to believe. 

 

I usually resolve those dilemmas by employing the West Virginia motto;

 

Good enough. 

 

The "experts" may disagree on the forum thread itself, but 99 44/100% agree with the FAQ -- it's a masterpiece. "Audyssey FAQ Linked Here"  

[wvu80]

8 minutes ago, garyrc said:

The "experts" may disagree on the forum thread itself, but 99 44/100% agree with the FAQ -- it's a masterpiece

Thanks!  I'm more than happy to take your advice on who to listen to! 

+++

 

When you posted the FAQ link I wasn't sure if you were aiming at me suggesting the AVR manual wanted that mic pointed straight up.  I won't make you answer, I read the FAQ you linked to: 

Quote

d)1. Do I really need to put the Audyssey mic on a tripod or stand?

Absolutely yes. This is one of the most common reasons for a poor calibration. You will not get a good result if you hold the mic in your hand, or if you place it on the back of your couch or on some other makeshift support. The mic should be mounted at ear height (when sitting in your usual position), pointed vertically up to the ceiling, clear by at least 2 feet from any walls and placed within the boundary of your left and right speakers. A tripod is OK and many people have these in their possession, but it can be difficult to use as one leg often has to be rested on the floor and the other two legs rested on the chair or couch.

 

[CECAA850]

8 hours ago, wvu80 said:

The Onkyo version of Audyssey tells you to point the included mic STRAIGHT UP and to use a tripod of some sort, no boxes, and not on top of the seats.  It does make a difference because Audyssey is measuring not just the speaker but the room acoustics so it has to read the bounce off the walls, ceilings, furniture, etc.

I was referring to where the horns were pointing, not the mic.

[wvu80]

54 minutes ago, CECAA850 said:

I was referring to where the horns were pointing, not the mic.

 

Ah, a subtle but important clarification.  I went back and read your original post saying that, it got by me the first time.  Thanks for pointing that out.

[CECAA850]

4 minutes ago, wvu80 said:

Ah, a subtle but important clarification. 

Time to re-read your manual cover to cover again

[Youthman]

Unfortunately, I have not had an opportunity to really demo the HT since I calibrated it.  This morning, before work, I decided today was the day.  I wanted to see if Audyssey had improved the SQ of my setup.

 

I spent about an hour streaming music from Spotify through the AppleTV.  I had the Onkyo set to Dolby PLIIx.  I typically listen to music in Stereo but it sounded amazing with all three speakers playing up front.  At first I immediately noticed how "full" it sounded.  Surrounds offered a very nice presence without drawing attention to themselves.  Front sound stage was crystal clear (which was not what I was hearing before re-calibration.  I thought the AT screen might be really hindering the SQ.  ). 

 

The bass was the only thing that was underwhelming.  I've found Audyssey tends to turn my subs WAY down during calibration.  I bumped the two sub channels up from -3db to 0db on the trim.  Bass now blends very well with the mains without overpowering them.

 

There were many times I found myself smiling from ear to ear.  Truly a joy to listen to music now in the HT. 

 

On occasion, I would turn it up to 0dB and with just about every Klipsch speaker I've owned, the LaScalas sounded crystal clear.  0dB is PLENTY loud for my taste and will not be listening at that volume for extended periods but it's great to have the ability when you want to jam.

 

I certainly appreciate everyone's help.  Audyssey was doing it's thing correctly, I was just initially concerned that my mains were at -12dB but now I realize that as long as my levels are matched, there's nothing wrong with it being at -12dB.

 

I can't wait to demo a movie now to hear how movies sound.

[garyrc]

On 10/26/2016 at 7:08 AM, Youthman said:

Unfortunately, I have not had an opportunity to really demo the HT since I calibrated it.  This morning, before work, I decided today was the day.  I wanted to see if Audyssey had improved the SQ of my setup.

 

I spent about an hour streaming music from Spotify through the AppleTV.  I had the Onkyo set to Dolby PLIIx.  I typically listen to music in Stereo but it sounded amazing with all three speakers playing up front.  At first I immediately noticed how "full" it sounded.  Surrounds offered a very nice presence without drawing attention to themselves.  Front sound stage was crystal clear (which was not what I was hearing before re-calibration.  I thought the AT screen might be really hindering the SQ.  ). 

 

The bass was the only thing that was underwhelming.  I've found Audyssey tends to turn my subs WAY down during calibration.  I bumped the two sub channels up from -3db to 0db on the trim.  Bass now blends very well with the mains without overpowering them.

 

There were many times I found myself smiling from ear to ear.  Truly a joy to listen to music now in the HT. 

 

On occasion, I would turn it up to 0dB and with just about every Klipsch speaker I've owned, the LaScalas sounded crystal clear.  0dB is PLENTY loud for my taste and will not be listening at that volume for extended periods but it's great to have the ability when you want to jam.

 

I certainly appreciate everyone's help.  Audyssey was doing it's thing correctly, I was just initially concerned that my mains were at -12dB but now I realize that as long as my levels are matched, there's nothing wrong with it being at -12dB.

 

I can't wait to demo a movie now to hear how movies sound.

 

Great!  I'm glad it's working for you!

 

Almost everyone over on the Official Audyssey Thread (Part I and Part II) on AVS, turns up their subwoofer (on the AVR trims, as you did) after calibrating Audyssey (as you did).  The boost may average about 3 or 4 dB, but some people go higher. 

 

Pardon my ignorance, but is Spotify lossless and full frequency range?

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Youthman]

im not sure Gary.  Here is what I found online

 

Tidal's claim to fame is that it delivers true lossless streams at 1.4Mbps — legitimate CD quality, for all practical purposes — while Spotify tops out at 320kbps. Apple Music runs at a slightly lower 256kbps, but it uses a better encoding scheme, AAC, than Spotify's

 

[Youthman]

I have the free version.  The premium $15/month version has a higher bitrate

[garyrc]

Thanks for the info,Youth.

 

 

[CECAA850]

On ‎10‎/‎26‎/‎2016 at 6:24 PM, Youthman said:

im not sure Gary.  Here is what I found online

 

Tidal's claim to fame is that it delivers true lossless streams at 1.4Mbps — legitimate CD quality, for all practical purposes — while Spotify tops out at 320kbps. Apple Music runs at a slightly lower 256kbps, but it uses a better encoding scheme, AAC, than Spotify's

 

Once I started streaming over HDMI (vs USB) Tidal's excellent SQ was obvious.

[garyrc]

On 10/28/2016 at 8:34 AM, CECAA850 said:

Once I started streaming over HDMI (vs USB) Tidal's excellent SQ was obvious.

Thanks!

[NBPK402]

I had a similar problem, and there is one more thing that you need to know...when your AVR is saying it is at -12 it could be that it has already lowered those channels to the max of its ability. You have no idea how low they really have been knocked down. A cheap solution would be a low powered amp (T-Chip?), but that would only let you know that they are not below -12 anymore. I like to see them no lower than -10 (so you know they are not cranked down).

 

I have another solution for you... Have you thought about getting a high power 4 channel amp to get your surrounds up to the levels of your La Scalas? If you could do this your subs might be able to be turned up, and your LaScalas wouldn't be at -12.