Audyssey Trims Bottomed Out for LaScalas and Subs

[Youthman]

I know I went through this when I originally bought the LaScalas but I wanted to start a new thread to get some fresh insight.  A few weeks ago, I angled the LaScalas downward so that the throat of the midrange is aimed at the MLP.  With the new cabinet, the LaScalas were raised up several feet which made the tweeters and midrange too high.

 

So today, I re-ran Audyssey to adjust for the new angles and here is what it came back as.  -12.0db is the lowest setting for the non-sub channels.  I believe -15db.0 is the lowest for the subs.  So as you can see, not only are the LaScala Trio bottomed out, the Subs are too and every channel is in the negative.

 

I can't add attenuators because I'm not running an amp. 

 

Is the answer simply to get out my DB Meter and calibrate every speaker to the same level?

 

[wvu80]

No fears, I can help! 

 

Disconnect the subs and run Audyssey with your 7.0.  That should get your speakers playing nice together at reasonable levels without the -12 db results.

 

Then put the subs back into the mix and leave them at that -15 db level as a start.  Adjust the subs as your ears might dictate.  In my opinion if you can "hear" the any of the subs as a point source, it is too hot.

+++

 

At no time would you run your speakers all to the same DB or distance.  Remember, what Audyssey is doing is calibrating to the listening positions you have chosen, at Reference level, taking your seating positions and room acoustics into account.  By definition speaker settings will not all be set the same.  Especially for a HT with 7.x, Audyssey is going to do a better job than by ear.

 

Caveat:  I wanted to emphasize the point that Adyssey is adjusting your speakers TO REFERENCE LEVEL.  Your La Scalas are so efficient it might really take -12 (the limit on the Audyssey scale) to get them to play 82 db (reference level). 

[Youthman]

Thanks wvu.  I'll come home for lunch on Thursday and rerun Audyssey without the subs and will post my results.

[Scrappydue]

2 hours ago, Youthman said:

Is the answer simply to get out my DB Meter and calibrate every speaker to the same level?

yep same as i had you do before. you need to set a new reference level. and i would try one more time with the subs all turned down a bit. subs can mess up stuff. but i would not run audysey without as suggested above. 

 

2 hours ago, wvu80 said:

Disconnect the subs and run Audyssey with your 7.0.  That should get your speakers playing nice together at reasonable levels without the -12 db results.

man i dont see much you ever post i disagree with but this is so far from being a good idea. audyssey does  a TON of eq for the subs. if you run without, you lose all that. 

 

2 hours ago, wvu80 said:

At no time would you run your speakers all to the same DB or distance.  Remember, what Audyssey is doing is calibrating to the listening positions you have chosen, at Reference level, taking your seating positions and room acoustics into account.  By definition speaker settings will not all be set the same.  Especially for a HT with 7.x, Audyssey is going to do a better job than by ear.

i dont know if you dont know how audyssey works or if you misunderstood what he was saying. audyssey sets every speaker to a certain level. does that mean trims are the same? no. but all levels SHOULD be the same after calibration. so what youth was walking was if he needed to level match. and i would guess that is exactly what he is going to have to do. 

 

2 hours ago, wvu80 said:

Caveat:  I wanted to emphasize the point that Adyssey is adjusting your speakers TO REFERENCE LEVEL.  Your La Scalas are so efficient it might really take -12 (the limit on the Audyssey scale) to get them to play 82 db (reference level). 

this would most likely be the issue. once you get so high efficiency he will need to level match his subs and surrounds to his mains and then offset his reference level accordingly.

 

 

[wvu80]

7 minutes ago, Scrappydue said:

man i dont see much you ever post i disagree with but this is so far from being a good idea. audyssey does  a TON of eq for the subs. if you run without, you lose all that. 

I know what you mean Scrappy, and believe it or not we might not be that far apart in our thinking even though it looks that way.  I read your other comments and as usual you are on point.

 

What we sometimes forget is that Audyssey has many flavors.  My Onk 717 has the bottom of the line or next to the bottom Audyssey 2EQ .  Basically, 3 mic points and even though it will set a sub level/db, it does NOT have sub EQ.

 

I had the same problem Youthman did.  Audyssey set my La Scalas at -12 (that is the limit, it might even be -15 db, who knows) due to their high efficiency and the low efficiency of my MTM center which was set at +6.  I unplugged the subs as I described, and as you suggested, a "new" level was established where the LS's came in at -6 db, something like that.  They sounded much better, and then I just added the sub to taste.

 

My solution worked for me, but I forgot Youthman might have a higher level Audyssey and he has more to lose due to Audyssey's ability to EQ subs.

 

I have used another solution as well, but I'll save it for another post.

 

Good catch, though.   

[Scrappydue]

I believe he has Xt-32. 

[Youthman]

Yes, I have XT-32.  I used all 8 mic positions.

[RoboKlipsch]

Man I have read a lot of the Kris K Audyssey dude's Q&A threads on Audyssey and a billion setup guides, that's for sure.

 

I understand you're aware of the attenuators and all that stuff.  My opinion actually goes in the other direction and maybe gets you thinking differently.

 

What that is telling you is actually the opposite of how you're thinking about it.

 

You're thinking, my LCR and subs are too high!

 

Well no, not really.  That's the majority of your setup.

 

The truth that it's showing you is -- your surrounds, as placed, in comparison to the others, cannot keep up.

Think about that for a bit, and maybe a different solution can be developed?

 

 

[Youthman]

No room for Heresy's on the wall.  LOL

[RoboKlipsch]

To be more exact, it's really just the surrounds vs the LCR, as you CAN lower the subs further, the gain can always be lowered.

 

Run a one position test with the microphone right between the surrounds and see if they come into range of the LCR, or see if they actually can eclipse the LCRs there.  Position is an issue here - or the choice of surrounds when using those LCRs. 

[RoboKlipsch]

LOL I posted my 2nd post before I read your response.  LOL I know, I know.

 

But position either needs to be changed most likely...or, you could double up the speakers at those spots if you can't/won't move them.  

I hear this dude Youthman is really good at getting deals

[wvu80]

30 minutes ago, RoboKlipsch said:

The truth that it's showing you is -- your surrounds, as placed, in comparison to the others, cannot keep up.

Think about that for a bit, and maybe a different solution can be developed?

 

 

That was my conclusion as well on my own setup.  That's why my unorthodox solution of integrating the subs later seemed to work for me.

 

Youthman's setup is so much more sophisticated than mine.  More speakers 7 vs 5, better matched speakers and of course he is dealing with four subs instead of my single.

 

Due to the higher level Audyssey he also has more options.  Out of 8 mic placement options he can choose 1,2,3 etc and see what happens.

+++

 

I am a big fan of Audyssey especially for larger HT setups with multiple seating positions.  It was suggested earlier that he might have to wrap his head around the -12db on the mains is the "new normal" for this setup.  I would suggest running the Audyssey in a few more configurations, and see what becomes "the new normal."

 

My guess is that using the stock Audyssey settings at reference level things will sound fantastic.  I also use the Dynamic EQ and I like the sound that way.  That's something to consider.

[RoboKlipsch]

Dynamic EQ is awesome.   Just turn it off to find out how much

 

I've run so many Audyssey tests I can't see how changing the test positions would be enough to get in range.

The surrounds themselves can be moved I'm sure but it's a matter of how close they get to different listeners in a small room.

 

The best advice I read and have used is the simplest - an expert explained when setting up Audyssey --

ONLY put the microphone in spots where your ears will/could be.  

 

I will now stop hijacking

[Youthman]

6 minutes ago, RoboKlipsch said:

The best advice I read and have used is the simplest - an expert explained when setting up Audyssey --

ONLY put the microphone in spots where your ears will/could be.  

Hmmmm... I put the mic in these 8 positions.  So 3 positions are in front of each of the front row seats, 7 & 8 were slightly behind the front center seat.  No positions were taken from the back row.

 

[RoboKlipsch]

The best and only test will be trying it a few different ways and listening for which is best.

 

To give an example:  I have that couch   

 

Position 1 gets 2 readings, Position 2 and 3 then each get 2 for a total of 6.  Positions 9 and 10 then each get one.

I sit in those 3 seats, and I sometimes lean in between or lie on the couch.  My goal was to make them all sound the same, and that worked.

But I have tried the Audyssey suggested spots and many others and none were as good.   Some were close - many were awful.  

 

I think you have 6 seats in the theater.  I would not be surprised if a really good starting point to work from would be:

1) Measure in the front row center seat twice (2).

2) Measure the left front seat twice (2).

3) Measure the right front seat twice (2).

4) Measure the back row center seat twice (2).

If you have XT32, you may not be limited to just 8 positions.  

 

[derrickdj1]

If the subs are in 2 groups for the 9.2 avr, the two channels need to ge gain matched fairly close to help the processor.  I wish I could put it into a few words.  I had to gain match the sub out 1 and 2 with the SC 99.  It was throwing everything way off before I did it.

[wvu80]

3 hours ago, Scrappydue said:

yep same as i had you do before. you need to set a new reference level. and i would try one more time with the subs all turned down a bit. subs can mess up stuff. but i would not run audysey without as suggested above. 

 

Wha???  Come on Scrappy, that's dangerously close to what I suggested! 

 

You don't have to admit you're agreeing with me (meaning I'm right) but can you at least we're leaning towards each other's position? 

 

[Scrappydue]

You said off. I said down a bit.  They need to be less than -15. His surrounds will keep up just fine. It has nothing to do with that. I have cinema surrounds that are for movie theaters and my setup does EXACTLY what youths does. The mains are so efficient audyssey bottoms them out. Period. You guys are all over thinking it. 

[Youthman]

I think I'm going to try and calibrate tonight, even though everyone is home.  Hopefully it will be quiet enough. 

 

At the beginning of Audyssey, it says adjust your subs to something like 72db.  I've done that in the past and after running Audyssey, it was as if the subs weren't even on.  Sounded terrible.  Last night, I think it registered at 96db at the beginning of Audyssey. 

[Youthman]

So before starting, I wanted to see what the dial on each sub is set at.  Each sub is set at 13 clicks out of 40!  That's basically 1/3 volume.  It seems ridiculous to turn them down even further wouldn't you think?