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The Flat Frequency Respone, Yes/No for Music


derrickdj1

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On 10/25/2016 at 2:39 PM, Chris A said:

I don't do "auto-EQ", but I do use REW and a calibration microphone to set each channel's EQ and delay manually using active digital crossover connected to each driver--as I've discussed elsewhere. 

Chris this is an excellent way to go.  I think most systems can benefit from some EQ since even with room Tx's and careful setup, most of our rooms are not perfect.

 

On 10/25/2016 at 3:29 PM, John Albright said:

I'm a little of both.  My system sounds better after Audyssey gets done.  I like and will use EQ to correct for the room and speakers when doing a live performance, but as little as possible.   I rarely use tone controls and then sparingly.  Right now, I have my subs set a little too high (3 or 4 dB?), because it just sounds too dang good that way.

John,  I do like as little of processing as possible for music and use the stereo direct.  EQ is still being used.  A 3 or 4 db boost in the bass is basically flat and is just a bit of flavor.

On 10/25/2016 at 3:24 PM, wvu80 said:

The first goes to how good your system is to start with.  If you have very good stuff I think "no EQ" is probably preferable.  If you start with a system that has a noticeable deficit like a lack of bass, then EQ can help make the sound more pleasing to your ears.

 

The second variable is, what are YOUR deficits as a listener?  As many of us are older the HF tends to go, so an EQ in the upper registers is helpful.

I enjoyed you comments Dave.  We do have a bit older crowd and some EQ on the top end can make a big difference.  I don't think there is a right or wrong way of doing things.  I think most of us are the only ones listening to our system 90+ percent of the time an d is should be tailored for your enjoyment.

 

I did experience one of our members LaScala setup using an exteral EQ unit and it sounded great.  I have thought about a small external EQ for my system since their is currently no way to EQ the speakers with the tube amp.  I would prefer a parametric EQ but I have seen this graphic EQ'er by Berhinger.   Just thinking how to squeez the last little bit from the 2 channel system, lol.http://www.sweetwater.com/images/items/750/FBQ800-large.jpg

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Flat speakers in general sound better.

 

Critical listeners will want a program material equalizer.

 

Although they were only $6500 new, there is a used one on Audiogon for $29.5K (I think the one for USD $24,500.00 sold already):

 

Cello Audio Palette + Suite EQ/Preamp USAudiogon $29,500 Oct 17, 2016  
 

 

 

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46 minutes ago, djk said:

Critical listeners will want a program material equalizer.

 

Although they were only $6500 new, there is a used one on Audiogon for $29.5K (I think the one for USD $24,500.00 sold already):

 

Cello Audio Palette + Suite EQ/Preamp USAudiogon $29,500 Oct 17, 2016  

Well, I'm not that critical. That when you hit the fly on the back in your orange juice cup for taking some of the OJ.:P:D:angry2:Image result for LMAO cartoon gif

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I'll admit that I do use the EQ's built into my Denon.

For TV and Movies I use Audyssey and it does make those sources sound great.

For Music--Not So Much.

My speakers sound pretty good without EQ and for the Average Listener

but I'm not the average listener.

Isn't that why we Tweak ?

 

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4 hours ago, wvu80 said:

 

I've not heard that term with regards to audio.  Can you explain "stridency?"

Basically harshness of the sound.  Grating, etc.  .... or as I said about the Star Wars sound in 70mm theaters in 1977 (compared to all the warm, beautiful 70 mm 6 channel sound tracks before it), "Knife in the ear."   Heritage speakers are sometimes accused of this, but, with good program material and no or few reflection problems, it only rarely happens.  See Chris A's and my earlier posts on this thread..  

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Well, I did a FR of just the Mains for the tube amp setup with 1/12th smoothing.   Overall the FR is good except for a peak at 35 hz and a Hi frequency dropoff around 10 kHz.  The 35 Hz peak is the room, the drop I am not certain.  Some of the dropoff may be the room and distance to the MLP or the mic measuring at the MLP which is around 20 ft. from the speakers.

 

 

Oct. 25, 2016 Main FR set to large.png

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3 hours ago, derrickdj1 said:

I enjoyed you comments Dave. 

-Thanks, Derrick

 

I did experience one of our members LaScala setup using an exteral EQ unit and it sounded great.  I have thought about a small external EQ for my system since their is currently no way to EQ the speakers with the tube amp.  I would prefer a parametric EQ but I have seen this graphic EQ'er by Berhinger

 

I used to have have a physical parametric EQ when I was younger, 16 band if I recall.  Hated it.

 

It sounded OK, but I found myself screwing with it ALL the time.  I was much happier without it. 

 

I'm way too OCD to own such a device.  :wacko2:

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1 hour ago, derrickdj1 said:

Well, I did a FR of just the Mains for the tube amp setup with 1/12th smoothing.   Overall the FR is good except for a peak at 35 hz and a Hi frequency dropoff around 10 kHz.  The 35 Hz peak is the room, the drop I am not certain.  Some of the dropoff may be the room and distance to the MLP or the mic measuring at the MLP which is around 20 ft. from the speakers.

 

 

Oct. 25, 2016 Main FR set to large.png

You have a pretty good trough from 250hz all the way to 2khz that can't sound good!!!

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5 hours ago, djk said:

Flat speakers in general sound better.

 

Critical listeners will want a program material equalizer.

 

Although they were only $6500 new, there is a used one on Audiogon for $29.5K (I think the one for USD $24,500.00 sold already):

 

Cello Audio Palette + Suite EQ/Preamp USAudiogon $29,500 Oct 17, 2016  
 

 

 

Good lord, that's audio nervosa gone wild...

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12 hours ago, canyonman said:

You have a pretty good trough from 250hz all the way to 2khz that can't sound good!!!

Surprisingly it does not sound bad.  I am leaning toward getting a small EQ for the tube system.  The one thing I don't want to do is use the Pioneer Elite SC 99's MCACC as a reference to tune the tube amp.  I don't need them to sound the same, lol.  I am prettty good with PEQ so, hopefully a graphic EQ'lizer should not be that hard to learn and add to the mix.  The problem is I can't use a pro one since it would have to be to far away and I have room on my stereo console for a small unit that would be close to the tube amp.

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14 hours ago, wvu80 said:

I used to have have a physical parametric EQ when I was younger, 16 band if I recall.  Hated it.

 

Are you sure it was a parametric? Most parametrics are only two or three bands, but allow you to shift the center and boost/cut of each band. This dbx is for a rack or console, but illustrates what I mean.

 

Bruce

 

 

dbx 530.jpg

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2 hours ago, Marvel said:

Are you sure it was a parametric? Most parametrics are only two or three bands, but allow you to shift the center and boost/cut of each band. This dbx is for a rack or console, but illustrates what I mean. -Bruce

You are correct Bruce, that is NOT what I had.

 

Mine was on a long, thin box, with sliders in the front which is apparently a graphic equalizer.  I don't remember the brand but it looked like this picture I randomly picked off the internet.  Thanks for helping me to better remember what I had.  :emotion-21:

e%20(6).JPG

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5 hours ago, derrickdj1 said:

Surprisingly it does not sound bad.  I am leaning toward getting a small EQ for the tube system.  The one thing I don't want to do is use the Pioneer Elite SC 99's MCACC as a reference to tune the tube amp.  I don't need them to sound the same, lol.  I am prettty good with PEQ so, hopefully a graphic EQ'lizer should not be that hard to learn and add to the mix.  The problem is I can't use a pro one since it would have to be to far away and I have room on my stereo console for a small unit that would be close to the tube amp.

 

In the pre-parametric days (consumer), the doctrine was that a useful graphic would have sliders every 1/4 octave.   With a good parametric, you might get away with less. 

 

I'm not sure why a pro level one would need to be close to the tube amp.  Also, since once you EQ your room, you wouldn't have to touch your EQ very often, so could it be on a table or shelf next to, or even behind, the stereo console -- or side by side racks.

 

I must say that Audyssey makes hundreds of EQ changes across the spectrum, > 1,000 on their newest model.  Coming up next year may be a way to build in preference curves.  But, at least, if you want relatively flat response, with the option of cranking up the bass for bass-shy recordings, IMO, Audyssey XT32 plus turning up the sub (if any) after Audyssey calibration, and using the tone control bass adjustment -- or go whole hog, and, after getting flat response in your room from the MLP (you're pretty close now), remaster your recordings with Audacity, the way Chris A. does.

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18 minutes ago, garyrc said:

I'm not sure why a pro level one would need to be close to the tube amp.  Also, since once you EQ your room, you wouldn't have to touch your EQ very often, so could it be on a table or shelf next to, or even behind, the stereo console -- or side by side racks.

The sub amps are in a different location than the main stereo components.  The only way to put the EQ'lizer over there is to run wire thru the walls and ceiling.  I'm lazy and have space on the main stereo console which the tub amp is near.  Since I'm driving the same speaker with the SS and tube, a bit of EQ on the tube amp would be nice.  The SS avr(SC 99 with MCACC pro)/amp combo has EQ.  The tube amp is ran directly from the BDP to the tube amp.  The BDP has basic setup like speaker distance, size and separated gain adjustments for the speakers.  This really does a good job with the sound.  The tube system SQ is great but a bit of tweaking won't hurt.

 

Once the new EQ'lizer is setup, I won't be touching it.  I really never up the bass with the RF 7 II's running full range.

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4 hours ago, derrickdj1 said:

It's been haunting me for some time so, I went ahead and ordered a graphich EQ.

BEHRINGER MINIFBQ FBQ800

 

You have 9 sliders on your new EQ, which probably make octave wide adjustments.   I would think

your best results would be to use Audyssey (on a new preamp/processor?) for basic room EQ, then use the graphic equalizer, tone controls, etc., for preference setting.

 

Can you set the EQ separately on each channel with your graphic?

 

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I'm not an Auddysee person and like what MCACC Pro does which is similar to the advanced  Auddysee in many respects.  It also has a standing wave correction feature which is a real plus.  This feature is just as important as sub EQ IMHO, which is also done in MCACC Pro.  Chirs is meticulous with his remastering of recordings.  He is a true audiophile.:)  I am just a music lover and don't need to hear the artist lick their lips, lol.  

 

I know this new graphic EQ'lizer is only 9 bands.  I should only need a little tweaking and if it does not work, I can send it back.  My wife would say I don't need anything else in this room.

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On 10/26/2016 at 11:55 AM, derrickdj1 said:

It's been haunting me for some time so, I went ahead and ordered a graphich EQ.

BEHRINGER MINIFBQ FBQ800

I got the small EQ'lizer in the system.  This is a pretty nice unit  and simple to operate with some nice feature.  No, it's not as nice as a parametric EQ but, it can get the job done for some finishing touches.  It's less than 2 lbs., lol.  This for people who want to setup something quick and not spend a lot of time on the FR.  Just thought I would capped this thread with a finish.:D  Thanks for all the ncie responses!

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Sometime the simple stuff manages most of it. I don't have tone controls, so it's up to speaker placement, room treatments, and taps selection with tubes.

 

As Chris A mentioned, a room will have the transition frequency range below which the room and speaker placement interact strongly, and above which the sound's reflective boundaries become prominent.  Moving the speakers and listening can zone in on the best behavior of the low end.  Pushing in and out of corners and towards and away from walls offers a range of response.  Then, once the speakers are set, using a small mirror to locate the primary reflections can indicate the spots that need some treatment (high frequency sound and light are both "line-of-sight", so wherever against the wall the mirror is when you can see the reflection of a tweeter in the mirror from where you listen is right where the treatment for that tweeter's primary reflection needs to be - just large enough to occlude the reflected image of the tweeter).

 

With tube amps, if you "tap down" (e.g., using the 4ohm tap for 8ohm speaker load) the high end in general will be slightly reduced and the damping factor increased for control of the low end. If both these effects are beneficial in a particular arrangement, this is an easy "head start" in the right direction.

 

 

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