CECAA850 Posted October 28, 2016 Share Posted October 28, 2016 11 minutes ago, Schu said: I need to invest in an folded horn sub... finding a builder locally in a challenge. The F-20 really isn't a hard build. It's much simpler than the BFM designs. If you have a circular saw and a little want to, you can get one done. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moderators Youthman Posted October 28, 2016 Author Moderators Share Posted October 28, 2016 54 minutes ago, Pete H said: Those pictures from Wakejunkie are really cool. How did he come up with that idea. Not sure exactly. He's an engineer with a lot of woodworking background passed down from his Dad growing up. 29 minutes ago, CECAA850 said: He's extremely creative. I couldn't agree with you more. Shaun is the most creative, handy guys I've met in my life. I mean who makes a home made lathe out of pipe, lawnmower pulleys and a corded drill just because it's cheaper to build one out of parts you already have instead of buying one? Shaun does. 32 minutes ago, CECAA850 said: He originally had a pro style sub there that really didn't hit down low. He still has the Mackie pro sub. It has a lot of output but it's very sloppy / boomy. 32 minutes ago, CECAA850 said: The LED backlighting was my suggestion It looks amazing. Added a very nice touch to the style of the enclosure. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Schu Posted October 28, 2016 Share Posted October 28, 2016 41 minutes ago, CECAA850 said: The F-20 really isn't a hard build. It's much simpler than the BFM designs. If you have a circular saw and a little want to, you can get one done. I am tempted... really I am. The f20 is a design I could live with also, but I would hate to muck it up. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CECAA850 Posted October 28, 2016 Share Posted October 28, 2016 9 minutes ago, Schu said: I am tempted... really I am. The f20 is a design I could live with also, but I would hate to muck it up. Get started. If you have any questions holler. Once you have everything in front of you it'll all make sense. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RoboKlipsch Posted October 28, 2016 Share Posted October 28, 2016 4 hours ago, Youthman said: I have never owned a sub that could hit below 20Hz. The first and only time I have experienced sub 20Hz frequencies was in wakejunkie's setup. Talk about putting a grin on your face. His subs will easily play down in the single digits. I've plotted the RSW-15 frequencies and at 19Hz, it begins dropping like a rock...very steep dropoff in output. Ok so help me think this through.....how could I build an IB system that looks cool but has opposing facing speakers? If possible, I would like to be able to see all 4 speakers. The space where the RSW-15's are measures 36" Deep x 27" Wide and 89" up to the ceiling. I hope you don't mind me adding a few semi-random thoughts and considerations here -- 1. Regarding the RSW-15...the best frequency curve I have ever seen about it is from it's original review in 2001. And the second best and confirming measurements of the sub were from you: As the charts show, there is little if anything usable at or below 20hz, and the fall occurs closer to 30 actually. It was these graphs, combined with my own experience, that led me to look for a deeper dig in the bass. The test measurement in the review showed it hitting 92db at 20hz at max. Comparing to 110db at other frequencies, at 20hz it's not worthless but close. 2. You've never shared or discussed the current response in the room as placed. I'm sure we all are wondering how well the bass responds in the room with the placement. One thing I have long thought in your theater, is what would happen if 2 of the RSWs were mounted on shelves towards the ceiling at the back of the room? You then have a 1/4 room size 4 corners model, which is considered one of the top 3 ideal layouts in a rectangular room. This alone might dramatically change how the bass feels and sounds Stacking 2 in the front definitely looks awesome, and may be excellent placement...but I don't think there's any way for us to know without measurements. 3. If the horn subs cannot get down below 25hz with authority - able to match or keep up with frequencies in the 40-80range, then I'm not sure at all you'd find any improvement in your bass switching to horns. I've heard a few horn subs and they sound amazing. But I also have never been demo'd a horn sub that blasts at 20hz or below. I believe there may be some, but that's another discussion. 4. To date I have never been impressed with output below 10hz. I haven't had that much experience so far, but I'm not sure you need to think about or consider getting that low, unless it happens to be incidentally part of what an IB setup you consider can do. My limited experience is that it's right around 15hz where the extra magic happens. Others can chime in with opinions on that if they like. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jason str Posted October 28, 2016 Share Posted October 28, 2016 The RSW must use a steep slope filter to protect the driver, you should still get some room gain below unless the room is huge or open to other areas. What makes the horn a better choice is the way it will cross over to the mains, frequency response is not everything as most horn lovers know its the way it sounds is what makes the difference. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moderators Youthman Posted October 29, 2016 Author Moderators Share Posted October 29, 2016 10 hours ago, RoboKlipsch said: I hope you don't mind me adding a few semi-random thoughts and considerations here -- I don't mind at all. 10 hours ago, RoboKlipsch said: And the second best and confirming measurements of the sub were from you: That's funny. I immediately recognized that graph. I forgot I had compared them. I thought it was smoothe until 20Hz but as you mentioned, it actually starts the decline before that. By the time it hits 20Hz, there is very little output. 11 hours ago, RoboKlipsch said: 2. You've never shared or discussed the current response in the room as placed. I'm sure we all are wondering how well the bass responds in the room with the placement. I didn't realize those numbers changed due to having more than one sub. I thought specs were limitations of the sub. That will be a fun experiment. Maybe I can do that tomorrow. I wish I had a microphone that I could use REW with. There is a UMIK-1 mic I'm watching on Ebay. Has 21hrs left and is currently at $61.00. Why am I so cheap. LOL 11 hours ago, RoboKlipsch said: Stacking 2 in the front definitely looks awesome, and may be excellent placement...but I don't think there's any way for us to know without measurements. Hopefully we can find out this weekend. 11 hours ago, RoboKlipsch said: If the horn subs cannot get down below 25hz with authority - able to match or keep up with frequencies in the 40-80range, then I'm not sure at all you'd find any improvement in your bass switching to horns. That's my thought too. I know horns sound cleaner than direct radiating speakers but I want the added depth too if I'm going to upgrade. 11 hours ago, RoboKlipsch said: To date I have never been impressed with output below 10hz. We didn't play frequencies but I can tell you Wakejunkies IB subs went MUCH lower than my RSW-15's. When there was a deep drop during a movie, it seemed as if the sub just kept going without a struggle. I know Wake has used REW and although I don't know the numbers, he said his FI IB318 go down into the single digits. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moderators Youthman Posted October 29, 2016 Author Moderators Share Posted October 29, 2016 11 hours ago, jason str said: The RSW must use a steep slope filter to protect the driver, you should still get some room gain below unless the room is huge or open to other areas. I've heard that term (room gain) before but I guess I didn't really understand it. I assumed it was just SPL but it seems you guys are suggesting speakers can actually go lower than rated depending on the room and how many subs are used? 11 hours ago, jason str said: What makes the horn a better choice is the way it will cross over to the mains, frequency response is not everything as most horn lovers know its the way it sounds is what makes the difference. It's still awesome to feel frequencies you can't hear. I've never heard a horn sub other than a Jubilee. It sounded great but still could benefit from adding dedicated subs. Just curious if you have had a chance to heard an IB system? I've only heard Wake's. It's insane...even when he had just a pair of them, every month he would have to re-tighten his light bulbs. One time he went to tighten one and it almost fell into his hand it was so loose. He's had plenty of stuff fall off the walls in his workshop. It's truly something to experience. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moderators Youthman Posted October 29, 2016 Author Moderators Share Posted October 29, 2016 (4) IB318 - $1232.80 shipped (1) Behringer Europower EP4000 - $330.00 shipped Materials - Unsure Shaun said he wishes he could buy one of my RSW-15's to replace his Mackie sub with his LaScalas. I told Shaun, maybe sometime in the future, I could sell 3 of my subs. That should give me pretty close if not enough to cover the cost of the upgrade. The next time he comes down, he could help me build it, then he could go home with the RSW-15 as a thank you. Sure has me thinking.... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moderators Youthman Posted October 29, 2016 Author Moderators Share Posted October 29, 2016 14 minutes ago, Youthman said: I know Wake has used REW and although I don't know the numbers, he said his FI IB318 go down into the single digits. He just sent me an email with the following: Quote With two I was pretty flat to around 9HZ, around 10dB low at 5. (Pretty sure). Don't quote me I don't know where the charts are, probably on my forums page somewhere. I don't know if I have run again since I got 4. I'm just thinking he's getting a flat response at 9Hz. That's a pretty huge gap between 9Hz and 25Hz. I'm pretty sure the fun stuff happens below 25Hz. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Dude Posted October 29, 2016 Share Posted October 29, 2016 How about the THspud? It was a fairly easy low cost build. Its approximately 48" x 48" x11" . I don't know if you have any space behind the Lascalas. If you had 11" they would fit right behind them. I am planning a couple of F20s for my next builds, which won't be until next year. But am curious to compare the F20 to the THspud and TTLS. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moderators Youthman Posted October 29, 2016 Author Moderators Share Posted October 29, 2016 12 minutes ago, The Dude said: I don't know if you have any space behind the Lascalas. Not much room for subs behind the LaScalas. The platform they are sitting on is 36" deep. 14 minutes ago, The Dude said: How about the THspud? It was a fairly easy low cost build. It's just difficult for me to think that quad 8" drivers in a THspud would be a better option than quad 18" drivers in an IB configuration. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jason str Posted October 29, 2016 Share Posted October 29, 2016 On 10/28/2016 at 10:28 PM, Youthman said: I've heard that term (room gain) before but I guess I didn't really understand it. I assumed it was just SPL but it seems you guys are suggesting speakers can actually go lower than rated depending on the room and how many subs are used? It's still awesome to feel frequencies you can't hear. I've never heard a horn sub other than a Jubilee. It sounded great but still could benefit from adding dedicated subs. Just curious if you have had a chance to heard an IB system? I've only heard Wake's. It's insane...even when he had just a pair of them, every month he would have to re-tighten his light bulbs. One time he went to tighten one and it almost fell into his hand it was so loose. He's had plenty of stuff fall off the walls in his workshop. It's truly something to experience. Room gain varies with room size, if its sealed or not and construction of the space. Full horn loaded subs benefit from acting like a sealed sub below tuning frequency unlike rolling off quicker like ported units. You will at minimum be flat to 20 Hz with a full size THT, its best not to EQ below tuning frequency of the horn (22 Hz) for lowest distortion but it will dig lower than what you are using now. Infinite baffle is great for home theater but not the best choice to cross over to your mains, if it was my room i would build some horns first and see if i was satisfied with them. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moderators Youthman Posted October 29, 2016 Author Moderators Share Posted October 29, 2016 18 minutes ago, jason str said: Infinite baffle is great for home theater but not the best choice to cross over to your mains I'm probably 90% HT, 10% Music. Would that matter? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jason str Posted October 29, 2016 Share Posted October 29, 2016 1 hour ago, Youthman said: I'm probably 90% HT, 10% Music. Would that matter? Its designed for home theater use. Tuba home theater (THT) Edit: You have a BFM builder right in Orlando Florida you may want to check out, save you a ton on shipping and no worries about damage from shipping. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moderators Youthman Posted October 29, 2016 Author Moderators Share Posted October 29, 2016 Maybe I could connect with the builder to go and hear one before buying one. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moderators Youthman Posted October 29, 2016 Author Moderators Share Posted October 29, 2016 Wife went grocery shopping so I have some time to run frequency tests. Will report back soon. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moderators Youthman Posted October 29, 2016 Author Moderators Share Posted October 29, 2016 I'm not sure why I even asked that question because I already know the answer to it. I forgot the last time I visited, we spent 3 straight hours listening to music. His wife LOVES music and we all sat on the 8' beanbag while she was the "DJ". She would stream through Spotify using a wireless keyboard and a HTPC. It sounds fantastic. Shaun truly has an incredible setup both for HT and for Music. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moderators Youthman Posted October 29, 2016 Author Moderators Share Posted October 29, 2016 Well....now I can't remember how I set it up in Excel to graph it out. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Quiet_Hollow Posted October 29, 2016 Share Posted October 29, 2016 8 hours ago, jason str said: You have a BFM builder right in Orlando Florida you may want to check out, save you a ton on shipping and no worries about damage from shipping. +1 Mike, I sent you a PM in that regard. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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