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Youthman

Horn Subs or IB Subs to Replace (4) RSW-15's

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I would say the front firing THTLP faced towards the back wall would be the best option if they must fit between the mains.

 

If you remember back when you upgraded to LaScala's and were impressed you can expect the same once you are running a full set of horns, the difference will be dramatic.

 

 

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12 hours ago, The Dude said:

How about the THspud?  It was a fairly easy low cost build.  Its approximately 48" x 48" x11" .  I don't know if you have any space behind the Lascalas. If you had 11" they would fit right behind them.  I am planning a couple of F20s for my next builds, which won't be until next year.  But am curious to compare the F20 to the THspud and TTLS. 

I'm going to chime in, only because I've built and own both of them and my spud is sitting out in the shop collecting dust after the F-20 builds. When I first built the SPUD, I honestly didn't like it much when comparing it to RSW15's either, now that said, I'm 85% music and 15%HT and all of my results were 100% based on what I like and nothing else, but the end result is one F20 in my main system for HT and music and I'm really pleased with what it does.

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Any of the front-loaded, folded horn designs sound great on a fraction of the power. BFM Tuba series , JTR OrbitShifter LFU, Klipsch MWM, 1802, cinema F20, etc. etc.

 

Just varying shades of extension, cost, size. Nice thing about them is they can be moved from residence to residence with "relative" ease, whereas IB's are a typically a significant install item.

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4 hours ago, Youthman said:

Well....now I can't remember how I set it up in Excel to graph it out.

 

splgraph.jpg

From the 30s through the 70s there's a huge peak over the lower end by 10db, and then a dip again from the 70s to 90s and then back up at 100.

 

Thinking about how Audyssey does it's thing, these results seem to be finding major room modes at the MLP.

There isn't much you can do about the amount of room gain and capability of the RSWs - your bottom end drops off at 18hz.

But the good news imo is, 18 is pretty awesome, and 17 at -6 is usable, so you have usable range to 17hz in-room.

 

The challenge you have, if you are willing to consider it, is how to smooth out the response of these subs from the 30's  on up.

With 4 of those RSWs, I'm thinking you have way more SPL firepower than you'll ever need even if you decrease levels across a lot of the response.  

 

You may not need to change subs at all.  This is all about placement, calibration and PEQ.  If it isn't enough or doesn't improve it enough, then I'd go IB or horn.

 

I don't give up before the good fight is fought, and this is a start, a good start towards improving what you already have. 

 

Level the response to roughly 90/92 db from 19 and up and you have what is probably all the slam, feel and low end you'll want.

You can't feel it now because below somewhere in the 30s, it drops off.  Can you measure between 30 and 40 to see where that is?  

 

#1 Audyssey calibration with 4 subs should be able to get it flatter than this.  This is a whole conversation/discussion but a good one imo.

#2 Placement of the subs, which I know is a pain, may very well provide a way smoother response.  Although you have 4 subs right now, and they look beautiful, for all intents and purposes you are running 2 subs with massive capability, instead of 4 with excellent capability.  

#3 I don't remember if you treated the room, bass traps, etc?  They might help along with placement.  

#4 PEQ, if applied, can help smooth the response.

 

I would consider all of these in order, don't needs lots of time for each but imo, spending no money, and potentially having a theater with a flat response to 18hz and usable response to 16/17hz would be more than enough. When your sound level from 40-80 is "right", your level below 30ish is not, and thus you're not getting what you deserve...and actually already have!  It's just not optimized.  

 

Total cost of this possibility:  $0, but time. :)

 

 

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Lowering the peak area will give him more power down low.  Wether he keeps the RSW or go to horns/IB, he will like need the same sub EQ in addition to Auddysee since most of this is caused by the room.

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I'm going to chime in, only because I've built and own both of them and my spud is sitting out in the shop collecting dust after the F-20 builds. When I first built the SPUD, I honestly didn't like it much when comparing it to RSW15's either, now that said, I'm 85% music and 15%HT and all of my results were 100% based on what I like and nothing else, but the end result is one F20 in my main system for HT and music and I'm really pleased with what it does.




Good input, i have to agree with this. Music wise my ttls seems to have more output with the same power. Because of this i prefer the ttls over the spud. Now haven't quite a/b tested them with movies. But the other my son and i were playing something on the system. Game or Movie not sure which one, but there was a butt load of low frequency. So i was pretty pleased with that. My next builds will be the f20. I just want to find rthe right driver and amp.

If i was starting over, i would start with the f20.

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Having 2 THTs might make me biased. But, honestly for what I have in them, and the fact that they can go with me when we move, they're hard to beat. I understand that a f20 might have more output. But, I would rather have two more THTs. I've said this before here, and I'll say it again. I've never, ever, ever heard a bad noise come from either sub. No matter what I do. I'll break the damn house before those subs give out. 

 

IB interest me. Maybe one day, when we're in our forever home, I'd consider one. But, until then....it's THTs for me. I plan on building 2 more, sometime. 

 

I'd like to know what Youth decided on. Did you ever get to hear a THT?

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54 minutes ago, Rowan611 said:

I'd like to know what Youth decided on. Did you ever get to hear a THT?

No decisions yet.....we've been working diligently on the backyard living area.  Today, we picked up an 820lb hot tub.... have to run electrical to it, then build the sitting wall and then pressure wash, sand and seal the driveway pavers.  Too many home improvement projects right now to focus on subs. 

 

One day I hope to hear a horn loaded sub so I can see how they compare to the IB that I heard.

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Youthman....you really need to read this thread:

http://www.avsforum.com/forum/155-diy-speakers-subs/837744-double-bass-array-dba-modern-bass-concept.html

 

DBA is the way you wanna go. Your room is almost perfect for it - and with an IB arrangement you'll get some serious flexibility with the manifold openings.

 

One thing about IB subs....if at all possible, make sure your drivers are mounted horizontally. This removes the effects of gravity from affecting the resting position of the voice coil in the gap of the motor. Also, you can have the basket side of the driver facing outward. If you have one driver mounted normally and sideways in a manifold, then you can have the other driver mounted with its magnet in front of the other driver so that they're dual opposed. This arrangement will cancel a lot of distortion products. It would also allow you to mount your manifolded array closer to the DBA ideal (I think).

 

Btw, the other half of the DBA concept is to have a matching array on the rear wall - which is set up to "catch" the front wave and cancel it out. This just adds to your total displacement capability of your system.

 

 

One other concept - "IB" is really just a large sealed cabinet and should be designed like every other sealed design. What I mean by this is that sometimes a slightly smaller rear volume will actually net you more output and lower distortion. You also need to deal with the standing waves that resonate behind the IB. These waves make their way through the diaphragms of your drivers - even if everything else is perfectly sealed up. This could be as simple as a ton of sound absorbing material behind the IB. You'll also want to avoid resonances that are in phase from both chambers (the room and the rear chamber) from totally unloading the driver. Lots of arguments to controlling the rear volume of the IB - and the thing is it doesn't affect your LF corner by much at all. If you're really concerned, then a little EQ down low can easily compensate. Good luck finding a processor that will do it though.

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On 10/28/2016 at 10:38 PM, Youthman said:

He just sent me an email with the following:

 

I'm just thinking he's getting a flat response at 9Hz.  That's a pretty huge gap between 9Hz and 25Hz.  I'm pretty sure the fun stuff happens below 25Hz.

 

I'm just reading this.  My opinion on the subsonics is that it depends on how loud you listen to stuff.  If you're at least -15 and especially at like -10 or more, the subsonic / infrasonic stuff is way fun and I think it's beyond silly to ignore.  However, at low volume like at -25, it's just not the same effect.  Every now and then you can kind of tell it's there but that's about it.  Anybody that says that below 25 hz doesn't matter in home theater clearly hasn't experienced anything that can actually pull it off well.  

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Normally ib's with their back to the attic have no issues with the rear wave as the insulation eats it up. 

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On 10/28/2016 at 10:32 PM, Youthman said:

(4) IB318 - $1232.80 shipped
(1) Behringer Europower EP4000 - $330.00 shipped

Materials - Unsure

 

For that kind of money you could have Acoustic Elegance.  The Fi's have quite a bit more xmax though.  They're also $274 each right now.  

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Dr Who...I'm not familiar with DBA.  I'll have to read up on that.  Thanks for the info.

 

15 hours ago, MetropolisLakeOutfitters said:

My opinion on the subsonics is that it depends on how loud you listen to stuff.  If you're at least -15 and especially at like -10 or more, the subsonic / infrasonic stuff is way fun and I think it's beyond silly to ignore.

I'm typically at -10db when we watch movies.  I like it loud....but 0db is a bit much for my ears for an entire movie.

 

9 minutes ago, MetropolisLakeOutfitters said:

For that kind of money you could have Acoustic Elegance.  The Fi's have quite a bit more xmax though.  They're also $274 each right now.  

If I do go the IB route, I would likely buy the FI as I have heard them and they are mightily impressive.  They definitely would provide plenty of LF for my needs (and my neighbor's needs too).  :o

 

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17 minutes ago, MetropolisLakeOutfitters said:

 The Fi's have quite a bit more xmax though.

Xmax is critical in an IB driver.  That's what you need as there's nothing to stop driver movement like a box would.

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Supposedly, at least with the Acoustic Elegance and possibly others, with an IB setup you don't have the same EQ needs as a sealed setup.  With sealed you usually have to boost the hell out of the low end which can overload some DSP's like the non-HD version of the MiniDSP.  With an IB you're supposed to be much flatter down low without having to rely on so much EQ.  

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1 minute ago, MetropolisLakeOutfitters said:

Supposedly, at least with the Acoustic Elegance and possibly others, with an IB setup you don't have the same EQ needs as a sealed setup.  With sealed you usually have to boost the hell out of the low end which can overload some DSP's like the non-HD version of the MiniDSP.  With an IB you're supposed to be much flatter down low without having to rely on so much EQ.  

I think Derrick was talking about room nodes.  They're the same no matter what style sub you employ.

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2 minutes ago, CECAA850 said:

I think Derrick was talking about room nodes.  They're the same no matter what style sub you employ.

 

I was talking about this:

 

http://aespeakers.com/shop/ibht-woofers/ib18ht/

 

" The extremely low Fs along with the optimal Qts makes the IB18HT woofers extremely efficient over the lowest octaves and eliminates the need for EQ to boost low end response. "

 

 

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I'm going from memory (which is scary and frequently wrong) bit I think an IB and sealed box roll off the same down low.  Room gain flattens things out if not boost the really low stuff.

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2 minutes ago, MetropolisLakeOutfitters said:

 

I was talking about this:

 

http://aespeakers.com/shop/ibht-woofers/ib18ht/

 

" The extremely low Fs along with the optimal Qts makes the IB18HT woofers extremely efficient over the lowest octaves and eliminates the need for EQ to boost low end response. "

 

 

Gotcha.

I've never boosted the low end on mine and doubt many IB owners do.

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