Jump to content

K22 Thiele/Small Parameters


Malcolm

Recommended Posts

  • 8 months later...

hello

These where provided by Klipsch a few years ago:

K22-K ceramic magnet circa 1984 till end of Heresy I Production

NomZ=8 Ohm

Re=6.9 Ohm

Le=1 mH

Qms=5.3

Qes=0.446

Qts=0.411

Fres=35 Hz

Cms=359 uM/N

Mms=57.6 Grams

BL= 14 TM

Sd=.053 square meters = 62 Sq Inches

Vas= 143 Liters = 5.05 CuFt

Xmax= 4mm

Pmax= 100Watts

SPL=93 dB @ 2.83V

Courtesy Sylvain Gagne, whose beautiful custom modified vented heresies I just purchased this morning!

Hope this Helps

Edmond Zauner

Montreal

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Ok, question from me...

If the woofer is only 93dB with one watt, then how can Klipsch claim 96dB/W from the Heresy system? The midbass couldn't be that far behind the midrange/treble... and the box is sealed, so no rear horn loading is possible. What do they do to gain 3dB/W?

Link to comment
Share on other sites

You are welcome!

I believe that the overall sensitivity is an average sensitivity. There is no specific frequency mentioned. If the mid and the tweeter is is 96dB between 2-10KHz, and the woofer is 3db lower, then you still fall withing the overall frequency response curve of 50-17KHz +/- 5 db. For an interesting look at sensitivity, go to http://www.eminence-speaker.com and pick any woofer and click on the sensitivity chart. You will see that they vary widely accross the frequency band.

why do you want the T/S parameters? Are you modifying it or building a custom enclosure. I would be interested in exploring together. I ran a couple of trials with WinISD just for fun. The Heresy II K24K woofer goes a bit lower in frequency but not much... -3dB at 54Hz vs 61Hz for the K22K.

I also just purchased a set of Heresies that where modified by the owner. He added a port and did some Xover mods. He also put plumbers putty on the horns. This was 3 years ago and the putty is still very soft. I expected it to dry out. (from my Home DIY experience) You do notice lower base comming out of the rear firing port. I will ask him for the technical details of his mod. He is quite an audiophile and am sure he did a good job.

Edmond

Montreal

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Yep, Edmond is right on about sensitivity.

My interest in the T/S parameters was prompted by a long delayed project to build myself the perfect center channel to go with Heresy mains and surrounds. Actually, I am currently using what is probably the closest thing to perfect, another Heresy. But I want something with that center channel form factor for the future.

I've measured parameters on a number of the different woofers used over the years in the Heresy. They are all over the place. But interestingly enough they don't sound very different. And they all pretty much start to roll off around 100 Hz and are 3 dB down by about 65 Hz. My main conclusions so far are that sealed box designs work well with widely varying parameters. And the box is too small. But then Paul Klipsch admitted that.

I considered going to a ported design to get better bass response. Yes, you can get some improvement that way. But to really extend the bottom end, you need to go to a 15" woofer. Then you are building a Cornwall. And when you are done, you still need a subwoofer to get the extra few Hz. So, I abandoned that idea.

Frankly, stock Heresys with a good subwoofer are the best compromise for me.

I prototyped a center with two 16 ohm woofers from early Heresy and a Type E network. Results were good. Next step is to try the same thing again with some 10" alnico CTS woofers from the 70s.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

K22E made by Eminence in the 70s and early 80s

specification #12447

Fs=33hz

Qms=4.61

Vas=6.02 cu ft

X-max=3.91mm

Sd=86 sq in

Qts=.351

No=1.55%

SPL=94.8dB/2.83V/1M

Qes=.38

Re=6.8

Le=1mH

Z=8 ohms

Bl=15

Pe=100W

This works out to a Qtc=.707 in a Heresy sized box with an F3=70hz.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I've noticed the variance in the TS quoted as well... (i edited out djk's data from my post... as he posted the same thing at the same time as me...)

I compared the K-22-E to the K-22-K and there were some pretty big differences in the X-max !! Is this correct? There are also more reasonable differences in Qes, Qts, Qm... (the Sd difference appears to be a conversion error)... In either case the box is undersized...

---------K-22-E----------K-22-K

Fs------33 Hz-----------35 Hz

Qms---4.61------------5.3

Qes----0.38------------0.446

Qts-----0.35------------0.411

Vas----6.02 Cuft-------5.05 Cuft

Sd------86.6 sq-in------82.1 sq-in

X-max--2.032 mm--------4 mm

SPL----94.8 dB@2.83V---93 dB@2.83V

Re-----6.8 Ohm---------6.9 Ohm

Le-----1.02 mH---------1 mH

Pe-----100 Watts-------100 Watts

BL-----15 TM-----------14 TM

Cms----uM/N------------359 uM/N

Mms----Grams-----------57.6 Grams

NomZ---8 Ohm----------8 Ohm

I'm still undecided wether to use a std Heresy as a center or build a custom unit as well. In either case, i'm planning on trying to stuff the cabinet as this should increase the equivalent acoustic volume enough to give it a Qtc under 0.7 although it won't change the bass extension. It is reversable and it will keep to unit orignal.

Rob.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Thanks for that list Trey... 1.gif

Not that i really need the info 12.gif, but I'm GUESSING those models apply to ? :

K-22 Heresy I

K-22-E Heresy I

K-22-EF Heresy I

K-22-K Last Heresy I

K-23-K Industial Heresy I

K-24-K Recent Heresy II

K-25-K Industial Heresy II

K-33-E Cornwall I, Lascala, K-horn, etc...

K-34-E Cornwall II, Lascala, K-horn, etc...

Link to comment
Share on other sites

hello Trey Cannon

Formica has a point. Would it not save you and us lots of time if you published a list of woofers and their T/S parms once and for all in a nice text format? Give me the rest of the pages of the nice Jpeg you posted and I will convert them to text and post them for all to see, so we dont have to ask again?

We just love to muck about with our Heritage speakers...

EdmondZ

Montreal

Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • Klipsch Employees

You got it the way I have it...

Myself, I don't understand why the end user needs this type of info.

If the speaker was good enough for you to spend your money on, why would you want to change them.

AND, how can you ever know what you have done to the speaker when you do change it?

We have "tons" of money in test equipment and it is still difficult to make the products sound and respond the way we do.

The one thing I know for sure is that if you ask PWK about adding mods to his speakers you soon found a "Bull****" button in your view and a "ticked off" PWK.

I am sorry to go on so, but this is one of my pet peeves...

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Trey

We are all on the same side!.

We are hobbyist and part of that is learning and experimenting, NOT thinking we can do a better job than PWK himself.

Part of it is to compare with other drivers available and see, for example, how 2 8 inch woofers in a custom center would be like compared to the Heresy's 12 inch woofer.

Also please do remember, any product design (Any no mater what it is, car, speaker, can opener) is a set of engineering tradeoffs. Speaker design is one of the most difficult tradeoffs around.

You should know this better than anyone! When Mr. Klipsch designed the LaScala, for example, he had some design constraints, size being one of them. Perhpas as hobbyist we have different constraints and maybe, just maybe, that we could modify a LaScala, or any of your speakers, to give different results that suit our tastes and needs. Also, when Mr Klipsch designed the Khorn or Lascala, there were no such thing as T/S parameters and computer modeling of speakers, crossovers etc.

But most important, it is because we are having fun doing it! So please give us a bit of slack here! Many of us spend alot of time and effort researching speaker design, horn theory, crossover design etc. We may not have a anechoic chamber, but we do have alot of pride in what we do, and get alot of enjoyment! Plus we are your best customers and sales people!

Edmond Zauner

Montreal

Link to comment
Share on other sites

----------------

On 6/2/2003 11:03:44 PM efzauner wrote:

Part of it is to compare with other drivers available and see, for example, how 2 8 inch woofers in a custom center would be like compared to the Heresy's 12 inch woofer.

----------------

Yup, Edmond knows what I'm getting at... 9.gif if we had more matched choices other than the rare Academy Center for our heritage series (actually none for Heritage I), these wouldn't be that important.

Dont get me wrong, I do appreciate your help Trey... and i'm not complaining ... There are not many who will get into the trenches with the users... 12.gif

Rob.

PS: I thought you had a custom Cornwall centre yourself?

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Thanks for all the input guys!

Trey, I know I don't have the equipment at hand to design speakers the way Klipsch and other manufacturers do. In my case, I don't want to change my Heresys. What I want to do is build a speaker with a center channel form factor that matches them, something Klipsch didn't do. Closest they came was the Academy, which is close but not close enough. And I want to build new cabinets for my Heresy that are more furniture like. Since PWK admitted the Heresy box is too small, I could use that T/S parameters as a guide to eeking out a bit better bass performance if I wanted to. But I won't because I will still need a good subwoofer.

Knowledge is a good thing whether you can put it to use or not. It was quite a revelation to see the differing T/S parameters from the different vintage Heresy woofers I have without hearing a significant difference between them at normal listening levels. My original request for T/S parameters was to confirm and help make sense of these observed differences.

Trey, you have been very helpful, as always. And I understand where you are coming from. But are you sure you are not Japanese? On this one you sound like the Fujitsu engineer some colleagues in Spain had to deal with years ago. Fujitsu air freighted them some thousands of disk drives from Japan. The drives came in two flavors, A and B. The guys in Spain needed B. Fujitsu shipped A. The Spanish engineers figured A could be turned into B with a few cuts and jumps and asked how to do it. Fujitsu engineering said "You don't need to know that. Send back the drives we sent you and we will send you the correct ones." While in California on business, they ran into a westernized Fujitsu engineer. When presented with the problem, he pulled out a schematic and said "No problem. Just make a cut here and a jump here."

IMHO the kinds of mods the folks who frequent this forum consider are pretty tame. Take a lot a www.audioasylum.com if you want to see off-the-wall mods that will really get your hackles up.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

And now for something completely different...

There appear to be three distinct variations of the K-22, all with the K-22-E designation. The first had an alnico plug magnet like the CTS manufactured K-22s preceding it, the second had a square ceramic magnet and looked to me just like the K-22-EF, and the last had a round ceramic magnet. I assume they were all made by Eminence.

And there were at least three distinct variations just labelled K-22. The first was a 16 ohm woofer based on the EV SP12B. The second was a 16 ohm woofer with an alnico plug magnet made by CTS. And the third was an 8 ohm woofer with an alnico plug magnet also made by CTS.

With the K-22-K, that makes at least 7 or 8 different flavors of the K-22. Was the K-22-R (the "replacement" speaker) yet another variant or just one of the others relabelled?

Link to comment
Share on other sites

----------------

On 6/2/2003 11:39:17 PM Malcolm wrote:

There appear to be three distinct variations of the K-22, all with the K-22-E designation. ... And there were at least three distinct variations just labelled K-22.

----------------

Thanks for filling that in, as I was Ebaying for a pair of K-22 replacements if i go that route... and i was wondering about the variations as I saw all 3 flavours of the K-22-E .

Have you decided on any possible custom centre woofers?

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I didn't have the Le for the 12447 so I entered a default value of 1mH.

Notice that ALL the values Trey listed are 1mH no matter what driver, whoever did these just used a default value here too.

Also notice that ALL of the woofers Trey listed have 4mm X-max, same deal.

The 12447 only has 2mm of coil overhang, but this does not reflect the real X-max. I used the method below to calculate 4mm useable travel.

http://www.diysubwoofers.org/talkshop/messages/32098.htm

I don't buy any of those numbers on the K33/34, they don't look close enough.

That K41 looks like the 10" out of the MCM1900.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Join the conversation

You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.
Note: Your post will require moderator approval before it will be visible.

Guest
Reply to this topic...

×   Pasted as rich text.   Paste as plain text instead

  Only 75 emoji are allowed.

×   Your link has been automatically embedded.   Display as a link instead

×   Your previous content has been restored.   Clear editor

×   You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL.

×
×
  • Create New...