forte II w/ A-55G Mids?

[jimjimbo]

i agree with you.  

I feel so much better now

[jjptkd]

14 minutes ago, Chief bonehead said:

crossvers tie the whole acoustic system together.  you cannot just change drivers without changing the network to get the same response....unless that just doesnt matter.

 

Well, this is at least a constructive statement. I honestly questioned this myself but was going off the info on Bob Crites website, he states the driver is suitable for the KLF-20 / 30, which uses the same driver as the forte?

 

I bought these drivers and horns for a DIY project that will use the Heresy HIE crossovers, just figured since I had them laying around I'd try them out in the forte II.

[Chief bonehead]

Just now, jjptkd said:

 

Well, this is at least a constructive statement. I honestly questioned this myself but was going off the info on Bob Crites website, he states the driver is suitable for the KLF-20 / 30, which uses the same driver as the forte?

 

I bought these drivers and horns for a DIY project that will use the Heresy HIE crossovers, just figured since I had them laying around I'd try them out in the forte II.

mr bob has no affiliation with klipsch.  and klipsch does not support or condone what mr bob does.

[wvu80]

1 minute ago, jjptkd said:

I bought these drivers and horns for a DIY project that will use the Heresy HIE crossovers, just figured since I had them laying around I'd try them out in the forte II.

 

This is the first thing in this whole thread that has made sense to me.  I know what you are saying, I've done the same kind of component swapping, just for the fun of it.  Sometimes the results are surprisingly good, despite my complete knowledge that you are not supposed to do that kind of thing and I KNOW all the crossover values don't match up to my crazy experiments.

 

I think Chief Bonehead weighs in here as the "voice of reason" and his perspective is one heavily weighted on the side of rational fact finding and sound engineering.

 

That's why we keep him around. 

[jimjimbo]

1 hour ago, jjptkd said:

Well, this is at least a constructive statement.

Again, see post number 5.  I asked this at the very beginning, and you chose to either not read, or ignore it.  i have a bunch of components "lying around", but I don't install them into speakers or other gear just to see what would happen.  Happy trails.

[Deang]

2 hours ago, Chief bonehead said:

really?  on what horn?  at what voltage level?  at what spl level? 

 

K-401. 110dB @ 1 meter (mouth of the horn). 

 

[jjptkd]

1 hour ago, jimjimbo said:

Again, see post number 5.  I asked this at the very beginning, and you chose to either not read, or ignore it.  i have a bunch of components "lying around", but I don't install them into speakers or other gear just to see what would happen.  Happy trails.

 

Yes, and I responded with my reasoning in post number 6. It clearly states on Bob Crites web page that this driver is a suitable replacement for the KLF 20 / 30 which uses the same exact driver as the forte II. By the way, you still have not answered the simple question, have you actually heard these drivers yourself?

 

 

[Deang]

File deleted. Looks like we can't upload MP4 video. 

[Budman]

11 hours ago, Chief bonehead said:

mr bob has no affiliation with klipsch.  and klipsch does not support or condone what mr bob does.

i'm sure if corporate Klipsch ever met Mr. Bob they would change their mind.  imho

 

no actual testing was done on my statement

[Deang]

12 hours ago, wvu80 said:

...  I've done the same kind of component swapping, just for the fun of it.  Sometimes the results are surprisingly good, despite my complete knowledge that you are not supposed to do that kind of thing and I KNOW all the crossover values don't match up to my crazy experiments.

 

Except for balancing the output of the drivers, most of the old crossovers don't have any correction built into them. So if you can find a driver that has the same sensitivity and impedance (especially at the crossover point), you can probably get away with it. You can't always rely on a manufacturer's stated sensitivity rating, but in this case you can. Now, if you change the driver AND the horn, you can run into trouble, since it's likely that the gain will change - and you have to measure to know by how much - at which point you may or may not have to address the network. 

 

My comments were in the context of Jimjimbo's insensible statement to Cincymat (post #13). It's obvious that he had no exposure to any of the measurements, and apparently hasn't heard a pair - so how does that constitute an "informed opinion"?

 

"12 ohms" is the DCR of the VC, virtually the same as any of the K-55 variants. 

[jjptkd]

Well, after having these mids in the forte II for a couple of days all I can say is that they sound great. They are very open and detailed and sound very natural, like they belong in the speaker. I'm not sure what changes need to be made to the crossover (if any) I'll email Mr. Crites later today and get his opinion about that but they certainly do not stick out as being "off" in any way. I've had time to go through and listen to many old favorite songs and they all sound great.

 

I'll have to do some more A / B comparing before I come to any solid conclusions, just want to give these a few days of play time before doing any real critical listening.

[jjptkd]

Ok, so, all of this crossover talk and exceeding driver capabilities and such has been driving me a little nuts. Forgetting about all of that the speakers as they are sound great but curiosity got the best of me so I decided to do a little make shift testing with the old SPL meter. I ran a sweep from 20hz to 20khz first and then a few sweeps from 600hz to 8000hz. I was a little surprised that the response in output appeared to fluctuate about +/- 3-4db between 600 to about 5500 but then from 5500 to 8000 there is actually about a 5-6db gain. I've ran the same test several times and come up with the same results each time. I'm guessing the mid driver has no problem reaching up to 8000hz which is causing overlap between it and the tweeter.

[jjptkd]

Ok, so I've done some more testing and busted out the SPL meter again, the results are pretty much what I concluded by ear.

 

First, the A-55g drivers are a little softer, measurably about 1-2 db quieter depending on frequency. Also, I didn't have my test equipment set up properly the first time around and was getting unwanted noise from my center without realizing it. The A-55g mid driver measures fairly flat from about roughly 520hz- 6300hz (in my KP-601 horn,) falling a little short of the 7000 hz pick up by the tweeter.

 

The stock driver k-61 measures fairly flat from about roughly 620hz- 6700hz still falling a little short.

 

The sound difference is as you would expect, the 55g's have a lower tone and less noise / hiss to it and its very clear. The k-61 has a higher pitch with noticeable noise / hiss almost like artifacts in the output, kind of hard to explain. Barely there but there.

 

Really both drivers sound good to me but if the crossover was modified for the a-55g I would say its a clear winner. Mods to the crossover would be lower the tweeter to 6000hz as in the forte 1 and possibly boosting the output to the mid by a db or two for the forte?

 

As far as the gaps in output between the 6300-7000 I never noticed it in any music I played and I tried all my old favorites.

[absolve2525]

Very interesting! What about replacing the K61 phenolic diaphragm with a Ti? It would extend higher. I know others have done this before, I'm just curious how it would measure and compare without crossover adjustments. 

[jjptkd]

I don't have the TI diaphragms on hand otherwise I'd try them out as well. That would be the easiest and cheapest upgrade, not sure how they'd compare overall to the 55 style driver?

 

I do want to point out that these tests were done with stock 25 year old crossovers and a cheap RadioShack SPL meter. This really was just a "see what happens" experiment since I already had the parts laying around.

 

From what I've heard I could see how someone could make this switch and be happy with it as is. I can also see a need for some changes in the crossover to make it right and possibly better though there really isn't an immediate need to do so to enjoy them.

 

These may actually be a better match for the Chorus II as the stock crossover points are in line with the 55 driver. Also, the Chorus II has a more forward mid than the forte so backing it off a db or two would likely put it more in line with the stock forte output.

[pbvideo]

Inspired by this Forte thread (thanks Jesse), I decided to give the A55-G drivers a go in my Chorus II setup. I consulted with Mr Crites and found a way to mount the driver directly to the stock horn in the Chorus (the trick was having enough depth in the cabinet and I ultimately had 1/2" to spare). After more than a month of listening to the A55-G installed in my Chorus II speakers, I've had some time to process the differences over the stock K61 mid driver and there's really no comparison. The overall midrange sound is much better - smoother with more detail and range.  I'm very happy with the change over from the k61!  Thanks to Jesse and Bob for the help!

 

[SWL]

 

The sound difference is as you would expect, the 55g's have a lower tone and less noise / hiss to it and its very clear. The k-61 has a higher pitch with noticeable noise / hiss almost like artifacts in the output, kind of hard to explain. Barely there but there.

 

This how I would describe the improvement using the 55G's in my KLF-30's. I also have another pair of 30's in another system in the house (stock mid drivers)....which when listening to them reinforces what jjptkd said about higher pitch with almost artifacts in the sound. The 55G's are just flat out so much more listenable and non-fatiguing. The warmer, fuller sound is like I said in the other thread....every Klipsch I've owned/heard could benefit from this type of change.

I'd think most audio enthusiasts that either love or hate the Klipsch sound would agree.

Sent from my SM-G920R4 using Tapatalk

[oldred]

Do you think this change is a result of the new driver...or placement deeper in horn neck and deeper in cabinet.

 

Just thought I'd ask.

 

George

[CANT]

On 11/5/2016 at 11:21 PM, Deang said:

 

K-401. 110dB @ 1 meter (mouth of the horn). 

 

 

I actually asked this in another post and never got an answer but how many drivers were tests in collection of this data? Is this a one to one comparison or avg of a batch? Which version of the K55 was used and was it new/nos or did it have several hours on it?

 

Though I am not in the market, if I were I would personally be concerned that the 0.58%THD reduction being touted is just ad speak and may not be any better or worse than the manufacturing tolerance either drivers QC might allow? I have definitely owned enough K52/55's to see what I would consider noticeable variances and the aftermarket can definitely be worse! 

 

I would add that you might want to also consider testing the drivers on a K700 and/or K600 so that you can include actual data from a series of K52... if the A55G is going to discussed as an adequate replacement for that driver

[CANT]

On 1/28/2017 at 2:31 PM, pbvideo said:

Inspired by this Forte thread (thanks Jesse), I decided to give the A55-G drivers a go in my Chorus II setup. I consulted with Mr Crites and found a way to mount the driver directly to the stock horn in the Chorus (the trick was having enough depth in the cabinet and I ultimately had 1/2" to spare). After more than a month of listening to the A55-G installed in my Chorus II speakers, I've had some time to process the differences over the stock K61 mid driver and there's really no comparison. The overall midrange sound is much better - smoother with more detail and range.  I'm very happy with the change over from the k61!  Thanks to Jesse and Bob for the help!

 

 

I don't have time to explain right now but this is a terrible idea!  Just because you can throw an adapter on it and it makes sound does not mean you should!

 

This actually reminds me of a quote...

 

On 6/17/2013 at 9:10 AM, Deang said:

People need to understand that every audible change is not necessarily a technical improvement (which should lead to audible improvement). Said simply - just because it's different doesn't mean it's "better".