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forte II w/ A-55G Mids?


jjptkd

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3 hours ago, CANT said:

 

I actually asked this in another post and never got an answer but how many drivers were tests in collection of this data? Is this a one to one comparison or avg of a batch? Which version of the K55 was used and was it new/nos or did it have several hours on it?

 

Though I am not in the market, if I were I would personally be concerned that the 0.58%THD reduction being touted is just ad speak and may not be any better or worse than the manufacturing tolerance either drivers QC might allow? I have definitely owned enough K52/55's to see what I would consider noticeable variances and the aftermarket can definitely be worse! 

 

I would add that you might want to also consider testing the drivers on a K700 and/or K600 so that you can include actual data from a series of K52... if the A55G is going to discussed as an adequate replacement for that driver

 

I understand what you're saying here but after 10 years and $150k developing this new driver do you really think they just slapped one on a horn, took a single measurement at the end and called it good? Maybe they did? I don't know for sure but seems unlikely.

 

I have personally compared the single set of A55-g's I have to two different pairs of soldered lug k-55v's and a spring loaded set of k-55v's on my CF-4 horns, the k-700 horns in my HIP's and my threaded k-601 horn in this thread. I've also compared the A55-g to the k-61 drivers in the forte II here and more recently against the k-57 in my Chorus 1's.

 

The A55-g's that I have came out on top every time and easily bests the k-61 and k-57 drivers, in fact my soldered lug k55v's I'm using now in my Chorus II's easily best the stock k-61 drivers but my A55-g's top those so I'm considering ordering another pair of the A55-g's now and probably will tomorrow. 

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Does ANYONE WANT to SELL me any -or- all of their a-55G's ?

I already have it in my Theater room's LaScala center, ..but want them in my K-Horns now.

 

 

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48 minutes ago, Born2RockU said:

Does ANYONE WANT to SELL me any -or- all of their a-55G's ?

I already have it in my Theater room's LaScala center, ..but want them in my K-Horns now.

 

 

Bob Crites sells these? Can't imagine anyone wanting to go back to stock versions unless for financial reasons, these seem to be the best available as advertised. 

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On 2/7/2018 at 6:53 PM, jjptkd said:

 

I understand what you're saying here but after 10 years and $150k developing this new driver do you really think they just slapped one on a horn, took a single measurement at the end and called it good? Maybe they did? I don't know for sure but seems unlikely.

 

 

Again, while probably realistic, "10 years and $150k" is very much ad speak... no one really knows how much he spent exactly? and 10yrs could be 10yrs off and on in his free time? Also, while he seems to be charging a pretty penny for these via aftermarket, the primary benefit of producing his own driver would be production cost savings for his speaker line. You can google "HPS4000" if you want to check out his companies page.

 

As for your reply to my question on the displayed measurements... I think you got confused. While I would like to see tests on other Klipsch horns (the posted graphs used a K401), I was actually asking how many drivers were tested in the collection of the displayed data. Was it the avg of 10 or 20 drivers? or just one of each? I ask because if it was just one driver a piece the touted benefits could be negligible as other drivers from either production company could measure slightly better or worse? I mean we aren't talking about an earth shattering difference in the first place? If multiple drivers were used how do I know that the best A55G isn't being compared to worst K55 they could find? The data appears to come from either Al, Dean or Bob... none of whom I believe would purposely try to deceive anyone on this form but I would still like to see more relevant information. I really mean no offense... I just tend to always approach these types of things with a health dose of skepticism. I mean the K55/PD5V is an excellent driver (also a clone of the Western Electric 555) but that doesn't mean I want to use it on every horn or in every application that requires a roughly 400-5kHz response? I may prefer the voicing of driver X for certain projects or just want something different now and then? Actually, if the A55G was just mentioned as an alternative to the K55 rather than the universal upgrade of a life time I'd likely be less skeptical because nothing is universal and the A55G/K55 is very different from the K52. 

 

 

 

 

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On 1/28/2017 at 2:31 PM, pbvideo said:

A55 mounted.JPG

 

Ok, so back to this... the primary issue here is that while the flange at the end of the horn is a mounting flange for the K52 motor assy (diaphragm/magnet) it is NOT the beginning of the horn. The horn actually starts about 1.5-2in up from that flange. This is why the commercial/pro version is shorter. That 1.5-2in is the compression chamber that the phase plug normally resides in. Essentially whats happening here is that at the end of the driver pictured the wave form is being allowed to expand and then is being re-compressed before then travelling through the horn throat normally... it's not a desirable thing and is very likely introducing a fair bit of distortion.

 

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1 hour ago, CANT said:

 

Again, while probably realistic, "10 years and $150k" is very much ad speak... no one really knows how much he spent exactly? and 10yrs could be 10yrs off and on in his free time? Also, while he seems to be charging a pretty penny for these via aftermarket, the primary benefit of producing his own driver would be production cost savings for his speaker line. You can google "HPS4000" if you want to check out his companies page.

 

As for your reply to my question on the displayed measurements... I think you got confused. While I would like to see tests on other Klipsch horns (the posted graphs used a K401), I was actually asking how many drivers were tested in the collection of the displayed data. Was it the avg of 10 or 20 drivers? or just one of each? I ask because if it was just one driver a piece the touted benefits could be negligible as other drivers from either production company could measure slightly better or worse? I mean we aren't talking about an earth shattering difference in the first place? If multiple drivers were used how do I know that the best A55G isn't being compared to worst K55 they could find? The data appears to come from either Al, Dean or Bob... none of whom I believe would purposely try to deceive anyone on this form but I would still like to see more relevant information. I really mean no offense... I just tend to always approach these types of things with a health dose of skepticism. I mean the K55/PD5V is an excellent driver (also a clone of the Western Electric 555) but that doesn't mean I want to use it on every horn or in every application that requires a roughly 400-5kHz response? I may prefer the voicing of driver X for certain projects or just want something different now and then? Actually, if the A55G was just mentioned as an alternative to the K55 rather than the universal upgrade of a life time I'd likely be less skeptical because nothing is universal and the A55G/K55 is very different from the K52. 

 

Everything in the first paragraph is wrong. A lot of time and effort went into developing that driver and diaphragm.

 

One or two were sent to Al for testing. This testing was for Bob, not for John (Allen) - who already knew everything there was to know about it.

 

The PD5-VH is not a "clone" of the WE 555, but it is based off of it.

 

I agree with the last sentence.

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2 hours ago, CANT said:

Ok, so back to this... the primary issue here is that while the flange at the end of the horn is a mounting flange for the K52 motor assy (diaphragm/magnet) it is NOT the beginning of the horn. The horn actually starts about 1.5-2in up from that flange. This is why the commercial/pro version is shorter. That 1.5-2in is the compression chamber that the phase plug normally resides in. Essentially whats happening here is that at the end of the driver pictured the wave form is being allowed to expand and then is being re-compressed before then travelling through the horn throat normally... it's not a desirable thing and is very likely introducing a fair bit of distortion.

 

I wish I knew enough about horns to converse intelligently about this -- but I don't. :-(

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I definitely see what you're talking about and wondered that myself, right now I've had them playing all my old favorites and everything sounds great. I'm going to play around with this a bit, swap them back and forth and see if I can hear any difference. 

 

So far to me the added benefit of the nicer mid driver easily out weighs any draw backs. The mid drivers have a deeper tone and slightly bigger and more open sound that is very clear. Also a lot of people complain about the forwardness of the Chorus II, especially when compared to the forte, I think this really balances them out, especially at lower volumes. 

 

1 hour ago, Deang said:
3 hours ago, CANT said:

Actually, if the A55G was just mentioned as an alternative to the K55 rather than the universal upgrade of a life time I'd likely be less skeptical because nothing is universal and the A55G/K55 is very different from the K52. 

 

 

I really don't see why this is such a stretch in this application, the k-52 actually replaced the k-55 way back in the day in the Cornwall and the Chorus was designed to replace the Cornwall so I see this as "taking it back." 

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So if the A-55G or K55 fall just shy of the output needed for the tweeter, would this be easier to find a suitable tweeter replacement or a crossover change to lower the output of the tweeter if it can even reach that low?

It's odd because it seems those few who have done this in the Chorus II are already raving about it as is. The Titanium diaphragm had the issue of overlap and there were some who also thought it was fine as is without the bandpass so i wonder if it's just not having proper A/B comparison to really hear where the issue lies.

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With these band-pass style crossovers there is some overlap at the crosser points, the A55-g's measured relatively flat out to 6300hz where it started to drop off. The tweeter is crossed over at 7000 but i'm sure will play below the crossover point so there is a band between 6300 and 7000 where the two drivers merge and that happens to fall in just about the loudest perceived frequency so I really think it's a non-issue, at least with the A55-g. Now with the spring loaded k-55v where they are known to drop off around 5000 I think this maybe more of an issue.

 

So far after listening to the horns with adapters for a couple hours last night and about an hour this morning I do not hear anything strange or off at all. I'm not saying that with measuring devices there is no difference I'm just saying to my ears I don't hear anything that stands out as being wrong. 

 

I'm not a sales rep for Bob Crites, not trying to push his product just sharing my experiences, take it for what it is. I already had a stack of spare parts from years of collecting so this little experiment really has only cost me $10 in adapter parts (I actually didn't even need to buy those as I have the threaded horns) and all these changes are easily reversible. The Chorus II is already a great speaker, I personally like the change with the k-55 drivers but as with every other tweak or modification it is completely subjective.

 

That being said I do believe the k-55v and A55-g are superior drivers to the k-61 / k-52 style drivers. I don't believe Klipsch switched to these newer style drivers because they were "better" performance wise, I think it was a cost cutting thing for mass production along with the cheaper crossovers and tweeters. 

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On 2/9/2018 at 8:24 PM, jjptkd said:

  Also a lot of people complain about the forwardness of the Chorus II, especially when compared to the forte, I think this really balances them out, especially at lower volumes. 

 

 

 

This is how I felt going from the Forte to the Chorus II.  May have to try this.  

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  • 2 weeks later...
On ‎2‎/‎21‎/‎2018 at 5:22 PM, Chief bonehead said:

he doesnt.. .....

It doesn't take a rocket surgeon to see what happened here and cost certainly seems to be the driving factor. If the k-52 / 53 / 57 / 61 1.5" driver was "better" than the k-55 the Klipschorn and La Scala would have seen the same change. If performance was the same and cost the same why change? Best case scenario is performance was the same or within an acceptable level at the specified frequency range >600hz at a lower cost otherwise again, why change?

 

What makes sense to me here (and I'm speculating) was Klipsch probably pays a premium for the k-55 because of its ability to play down low (400hz needed in the k-horn and la scala) and since the Heresy and Cornwall do not need a mid driver that plays that low they were able to come up with a less expensive alternative that met the design goals of those speakers, actually a wise responsible thing to do if you're in the business of selling speakers for profit. 

 

Now it is amazing to me that Klipsch was able to cut so many costs on the Cornwall and Heresy; cabinet materials (MDF) Crossovers (PCB's) Horn lenses (ABS) and horn drivers and still have them perform (arguably) at or near the level of their predecessors. Considering prices for the new models likely went up and costs went down these changes worked out nicely for the bottom line at Klipsch. I wonder who was responsible for the transition from the Heresy and Cornwall in the early to mid '80's to the "II" versions and how big their bonus was? 

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  • Klipsch Employees
2 hours ago, jjptkd said:

It doesn't take a rocket surgeon to see what happened here and cost certainly seems to be the driving factor. If the k-52 / 53 / 57 / 61 1.5" driver was "better" than the k-55 the Klipschorn and La Scala would have seen the same change. If performance was the same and cost the same why change? Best case scenario is performance was the same or within an acceptable level at the specified frequency range >600hz at a lower cost otherwise again, why change?

 

What makes sense to me here (and I'm speculating) was Klipsch probably pays a premium for the k-55 because of its ability to play down low (400hz needed in the k-horn and la scala) and since the Heresy and Cornwall do not need a mid driver that plays that low they were able to come up with a less expensive alternative that met the design goals of those speakers, actually a wise responsible thing to do if you're in the business of selling speakers for profit. 

 

Now it is amazing to me that Klipsch was able to cut so many costs on the Cornwall and Heresy; cabinet materials (MDF) Crossovers (PCB's) Horn lenses (ABS) and horn drivers and still have them perform (arguably) at or near the level of their predecessors. Considering prices for the new models likely went up and costs went down these changes worked out nicely for the bottom line at Klipsch. I wonder who was responsible for the transition from the Heresy and Cornwall in the early to mid '80's to the "II" versions and how big their bonus was? 

speculate all you want.....just dont assume you are right.  i dont.

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21 hours ago, Chief bonehead said:

speculate all you want.....just dont assume you are right.  i dont.

I know this change was probably before your time at Klipsch and I can't seem to come up with any information regarding the specific reasons for the change myself though I have not really looked that hard. I shared with you what it looks like from an outside observers point of view that is all.

 

I think the Cornwall 1.5 and Heresy 1.5 demonstrate the fact that these two mid drivers are some what interchangeable, whether or not one would prefer one driver over the other in any set of speakers crossover adjustment or not (not convinced at this point changes to the crossover are needed) is going to be purely subjective. As I've stated before I like the k-55 variants better than the k-52 variants, the sound has a lower / deeper tone and presentation sound stage is some what larger depending on the horn its bolted to.  

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The K-52H was built by Heppner.  Klipsch bought the company or perhaps just their driver tooling and sent the tooling to China to be used for driver production.  The also did a large mod to the diaphragm that combined diaphragm and phase plug into one single plastic unit.  With Heppner, the phase plug (witches hat) is a separate metal unit that just fits up against the diaphragm.  Also, the driver was changed from a thread on to a bolt on and the plastic horns for front mount were made to match the modified driver.

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