When did klipsch start to fudge their stats? And what was the reason?

[garyrc]

23 hours ago, dBspl said:

 

For the sake of clarity, Klipsch does measure the sensitivity at 3 meters in the chamber and then we convert it to the 1 meter equivalent (add 9.5 dB). The 3 meter measurement is a fairly standard distance for most loudspeaker measurements.

 

We've been using the 2.83V reference for quite a while. The 1 watt reference is really meaningless for the reason you point out.  In addition, amplifiers are a constant voltage source...and not a constant power source.  It's hard to screw up a voltage setting since it's as simple as setting a dial. Whereas the 1 watt reference is almost never really 1 watt, and very prone to setup errors. 

 

Kerry

The advertising spec sheet for the Klipschorn has it at 105 dB @ 1m @1watt.  What would it measure at 2.83v, and would that be across the rated bandwidth, or what?  I understand it is measured at 1/8 space.  Thanks.

[dBspl]

9 hours ago, garyrc said:

The advertising spec sheet for the Klipschorn has it at 105 dB @ 1m @1watt.  What would it measure at 2.83v, and would that be across the rated bandwidth, or what?  I understand it is measured at 1/8 space.  Thanks.

 

If you look at the current data sheet you will see that it is referenced to 2.83v and the sensitivity is still 105dB. 

 

The test bandwidth is typically 100Hz - 10kHz using pink noise.  The 100Hz cut-off is just a limitation of the test chamber. 

 

Kerry 

[garyrc]

11 hours ago, dBspl said:

 

If you look at the current data sheet you will see that it is referenced to 2.83v and the sensitivity is still 105dB. 

 

The test bandwidth is typically 100Hz - 10kHz using pink noise.  The 100Hz cut-off is just a limitation of the test chamber. 

 

Kerry 

 

Thanks Kerry!

 

FYI, if someone goes to "Heritage,"  selects "Klipschorn," then scrolls way way down to "specifications" and clicks on that, they will see it referenced to 2.83v.  BUT, if someone goes to Klipschorn Floorstanding Speaker, and looks at the first depiction, called FEATURES they will still see it referenced to 1 w: 

 

Features:

• Highly efficient: 105 dB 1W / 1M
• Fully horn-loaded, full range, three-way system with a patented folded-horn 15" woofer delivers powerful low frequencies
• 2" midrange and 1" tweeter compression drivers
• Capable of extreme output levels with ultra low distortion and astonishing dynamic range 
• Available in a high-quality Walnut, Cherry, or Black Ash wood veneer finish
• Made in USA

Thanks again,

Gary

 

[Heritage_Head]

All right guys ignorance is bliss k.. I dove into this so hard backing up klipsch so I get it.. I do.  But without going on and on ill just say my findings where overwhelming (Im so burnt on this subject its probably why I might sound a bit disgruntled so I'm sorry).

 

But Klipsch you guys know.... come on.....seriously  .  Regardless of what you agree or dont agree on at the end of the day you guys adding numbers that just don't show up and a lot costumers are like wtf (the peps who buy your speakers are saying what!). So if you stand by it with.... this measured with this added to that and of course no standard that we have to follow gets tossed in too (I feel like your making my point by the way). Now I know... I know there will be you guys that won't budge on this thats fine idc. Nothing rude in stating the truth. Adding extra numbers and not listing that you do in the stats and how you do it is imo poor taste. But if guys think costumers are cool with it and everything is hunky dory fine. And It wouldn't surprise me at all if your right.  All good.  Im just a customer with an opinion. 

 

For the record too this wasn't posted looking for debate on this topic (Im sorry my bad I should have been more clear w/e ). Your all welcome to your opinion of course dont get me wrong. But to me the ship sailed on the IF they add extra numbers years ago.. Now if they broke down in the stats what they do. What they add. How they add it. It would taste a little better going down yes. But they don't so they are misleading to a lot customers (including this one). And Id bet pretty confidently klipsch knows it. Example Look the rf-62ii is almost as efficient (sorry sensitive)  as the corn1. Wait or is it? No its not its listed 6db or more hotter than what it really measures. So... the rf-62ii would take what 2, or 3, 4x the power to even match it? Now if your just looking at only what klipsch posts you would think they were very close.  Nothing in what they present lets customers know anything to suggest they aren't very close. Its not an accident that on the surface the new speakers are presented to us to look as if they are just as efficient as the old. 

 

I love you Klipsch I do I really do but your full of it on this a little bit.... and I think you know it 

[Heritage_Head]

 

And some of you guys need relax a little wow. We gush on everything klipsch 24 7 365 (me included). A little negative feed back isn't going to hurt anyones feelings I hope. Nothing I said is untrue. I stand by it to bonehead or w/e or pwk himself (but he'd be screaming BS too). True is true. If anyone missed it he admitted they do it. He just had a very well rehearsed reply to how and why. But really its inflating the numbers (like bose). Everyones NOT doing it. Its garbage imo. 

 

[Heritage_Head]

Studies show that of the homes all klipsch speakers are put in. Its 100% for sure that the room will have at least one sub (this is pure bs that I'm pulling from thin air here but it has a point). And of all the subs the average performance was flat down to 22hz +3-3db. So.... knowing that 100% in are studies will have a sub and will on average be flat to 22hz cant we just say that the klipsch speaker going in that home is flat 22hz? Right?  Of course not. Not that different then adding room gain to room that isn't even real. Its a stat that isn't real until it is. Stand alone the speaker isn't capable of reaching advertised numbers. And no where that I can see does it explain that. 

 

 

 

[PrestonTom]

20 minutes ago, Cinema_head said:

Studies show that of the homes all klipsch speakers are put in. Its 100% for sure that the room will have at least one sub (this is pure bs that I'm pulling from thin air here but it has a point). And of all the subs the average performance was flat down to 22hz +3-3db. So.... knowing that 100% in are studies will have a sub and will on average be flat to 22hz cant we just say that the klipsch speaker going in that home is flat 22hz? Right?  Of course not. Not that different then adding room gain to room that isn't even real. Its a stat that isn't real until it is. Stand alone the speaker isn't capable of reaching advertised numbers. And no where that I can see does it explain that. 

 

 

 

 

What is confusing to some of us, at least to me, is where you come up with these notions, i.e., room gain is not real etc.

 

On top of that you place this great faith on a couple of guys on another forum who make various claims that may not be accurate. Just because some guy has a laptop computer and a microphone does not make him an expert. Why so much faith for the opinions of "someone on the internet"?

[Heritage_Head]

Im wondering where you got the idea that I'm basing this off a few random guys on avs?

[Heritage_Head]

And I'm not an expert but room gain I know pretty well. Its real. 

[Heritage_Head]

Preston and for anyone else that might be wondering about this. All I can say is research it if you want. Grind away at it. or not up to you.  You won't be able to tell me I'm wrong when your done. 

[Heritage_Head]

Im surprised more of you dont know this. Its been a black stain on klipsch for over a decade. 

[Heritage_Head]

But if you don't research the newer stuff like reference or below you might miss those things. 

[Heritage_Head]

I battled for klipsch man. All the crap I found I found trying to get stuff prove they dont lie. 

[Heritage_Head]

Every rock I turned had more bad inflated over stated stats staring at me. 

[Heritage_Head]

You think I would come to a klipsch forum and post something that some kid on avs in a bedroom did with a shack? Dude! Come on man.....

[Heritage_Head]

Im not kidding my feelings hurt wow 

 

[PrestonTom]

Enjoy the holiday

[Travis In Austin]

2 hours ago, Cinema_head said:

Studies show that of the homes all klipsch speakers are put in. Its 100% for sure that the room will have at least one sub (this is pure bs that I'm pulling from thin air here but it has a point). And of all the subs the average performance was flat down to 22hz +3-3db. So.... knowing that 100% in are studies will have a sub and will on average be flat to 22hz cant we just say that the klipsch speaker going in that home is flat 22hz? Right?  Of course not. Not that different then adding room gain to room that isn't even real. Its a stat that isn't real until it is. Stand alone the speaker isn't capable of reaching advertised numbers. And no where that I can see does it explain that. 

 

 

 

You're spinning in circles.

 

Studies show 100%  will have at least one sub?  What studies?

 

"This is pure BS that I'm pulling from thin air. . . ."  That is the one statement I agree with you on.

[Dkfan9]

The +4db room gain addition brings the quasi anechoic magazine measurements mostly in line with the rated specs. Stereophile: P17B 90.7 vs 94 rated; P39F 94.7 vs 99 rated; RB15 90 vs 93 rated. Sound and Vision: RF83 94 vs 100 rated; RC64 94.5 vs 99 rated; RS62 93.5 vs 97 rated; RVX42 92 vs 94 rated; RSX4 87 vs 90 rated; RP250C 91 vs 96 rated; RP150M 88 vs 93 rated; RP250S 90 vs 95 rated. And the AVS post, 95 vs 98 rated.

 

S&V uses 500 to 2khz, so there is room for discrepancy there as well (see the dip above 1khz in their measurements on the RF83). 

[garyrc]

On 11/28/2016 at 11:29 AM, Dkfan9 said:

The +4db room gain addition brings the quasi anechoic magazine measurements mostly in line with the rated specs. Stereophile: P17B 90.7 vs 94 rated; P39F 94.7 vs 99 rated; RB15 90 vs 93 rated. Sound and Vision: RF83 94 vs 100 rated; RC64 94.5 vs 99 rated; RS62 93.5 vs 97 rated; RVX42 92 vs 94 rated; RSX4 87 vs 90 rated; RP250C 91 vs 96 rated; RP150M 88 vs 93 rated; RP250S 90 vs 95 rated. And the AVS post, 95 vs 98 rated.

 

S&V uses 500 to 2khz, so there is room for discrepancy there as well (see the dip above 1khz in their measurements on the RF83). 

Very interesting, Dkfan9.