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Cornwalls with tubes


jkull

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Unnecessary as I presume this thread to be, I wanted to get feedback for my own confirmation and assurance. I am in the process of converting my 2 channel system to tubes and high efficiency speakers. Thus I decided on large klipsch speakers for many obvious reasons. I started with the idea of cornwalls, with some advising for la scalas. A nice pair of la scalas became available locally but I opted in the end to go for cornwalls for the 15" bass driver and lower frequency capabilities. This is because I happen to also listen to a LOT of heavy music as well.. Crustpunk, sludge, speed/thrash metal, power violence, hardcore, etc. Thus having a 15" cone I feel will suite me better and possibly alleviate my need for a sub any longer. I am planning to pick up these 60's earlier version vertical cornwalls (100bd)  tomorrow... Anyhow.

 

I threw a thread up on audiogon forum for input on my two selected possibly choices of tube amps. This may sound silly, but Ive got a dude or two questioning the pairing of these tube amps with cornwalls bc of the high sensitivity and impedance curves. Ive got others on there stating that the cornwalls should make a wonderful match with either the Line Magnetic 219ia or mc225 (the amps I'm considering). Meanwhile I heard in person a line magnetic 216ia through 104db la scalas just 2 weeks ago and it was great. No hiss hum or unwanted additional noise in the signal, which one individual on this thread claim may happen. And meanwhile I realize that the majority of people running these heritage klipsch speakers are doing so with tubes...  Is this a completely ridiculous worry?  I know tons of you run your cornwalls, khorns, lascalas, fortes, belles, etc, with all different SET and PP tube amps.  

 

This individual is concern act the impedance curve creates by the cornwalls may lead to an underwhelming sound quality. If this is an issue with cornwalls, or something others may have encountered, i would like to know. Would lascalas with a sub be my better route, or do I need not worry at all???    I do appreciate any input here...

 

QUOTE:

 

"One more point I would add relates to the impedance plot for the later version Cornwall II that is shown on page 12 (pdf page 14) of the paper I referenced in my previous post. It can be seen that the impedance varies from around 5 or 6 ohms in much of the bass and mid-bass regions, to more than 20 ohms throughout most of the upper mid-range/lower treble regions, and to as much as 75 ohms in parts of that region.

Given the relatively high effective output impedance of nearly all tube amps, and the wide variation of effective output impedance among different tube amps, what that means (assuming the earlier Cornwall II has similar impedance characteristics) is that interactions between amplifier output impedance and the speaker’s impedance variations over the frequency range will very likely cause a given tube amp to sound significantly different with this particular speaker than with many other speakers, that have significantly different impedance variations. I have made that point in a number of other threads in the past, with respect to other proposed amp/speaker combinations, but I would expect it to be particularly true in this case. And the author of the paper makes similar points on pages 19-22 (pdf pages 21-24). 

So that is a particularly important reason why if at all possible it would be desirable to audition the candidate amp(s) with the specific speakers you will be using.  The amp's intrinsic sonic character is only a part of the story."
 

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Very interested in this thread, and what you decide on the amps, particularly with regard to your music tastes.....No criticism meant there, just interesting....

 

My Mcintosh tube amps (MC240 and MC30's) drive my La Scalas, Cornwalls and Khorns more efficiently and with more quality than I could ever possibly appreciate.  Each has more than enough headroom to really crank them up, and I have a sneaking feeling that you would as well.   The MC225 is a great amp, but I don't know that you will find it completely compatible with your music tastes, as I think it runs a bit "soft", tone wise.  You may also want to update your Cornwall crossovers, and the tweeters, again, to fully accomodate your music choices.  

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A: Stay away from Audiogon; a bastion of audio pseudoscience woo.

 

B: Corns and Scalas can be driven perfectly fine with no discernable difference between any well made SS or tube amp that is rock solid 4 ohm stable. I'm sure that MC225 will run them at even blistering loud volumes.  

 

IMHO, tubes are audio jewelry. Get a good SS. With the music you like, I'd toss in a sub with either the Corns or LaScalas.  

 

 

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28 minutes ago, ATLAudio said:

A: Stay away from Audiogon; a bastion of audio pseudoscience woo.

 

B: Corns and Scalas can be driven perfectly fine with no discernable difference between any well made SS or tube amp that is rock solid 4 ohm stable. I'm sure that MC225 will run them at even blistering loud volumes.  

 

IMHO, tubes are audio jewelry. Get a good SS. With the music you like, I'd toss in a sub with either the Corns or LaScalas.  

 

 

 

"IMHO, tubes are audio jewelry". As a very famous speaker designer/engineer once said "Bulllshit". 

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 I have not owned LaScalas but I have owned both belle klipsch and cornwalls. I have not owned a MC 240 but I have owned Mac 30s and a MC 225.  The MC 225 is in my humble opinion one of the best sounding amps of its type around. You would be very happy with one driving a pair of LaScalas or Cornwalls 

 

 

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Thank you to all of the above responders.

 

I will collectively place my responding thoughts to several above comments. First off, i have done a few tube/SS comparisons now. It 'seems' to be clear to me that my ears prefer tubes. In regards to audio jewelry. Ill be honest, yes, my eyes prefer them too... And this does help. I have a soft spot for tube amplification in my long experience with guitar and bass amps, as in that world, there is no comparison, tubes take the cake in all ways.

 

I desire a setup that sounds good at low levels. While a chunk of my listening is aggressive forms of music, I enjoy low to moderate levels usually. Between the ability for the la scalas and cornwalls to both sound fantastic at low levels, a low wattage tube amp matched to them should enable enjoyable-low level listening. I do also listen to a lot of cello work, arco bass work, jazz, and female vocal driven music. Obviously some characteristics of listening are desired more with these sorts of music as opposed to heavier music. I understand that there is always a compromise and that no combination of amp/pre amp/source/speaker etc, will do every genre the best. I am okay with the highs being a bit rounded or some smoothness over-ruling all out attack in presentation. 

 

I have heard la scalas at this point. However, I have not heard cornwalls. Honest truth. A few of you are suggesting the la scalas over the cornwalls. There is a nice pair of all original raw birch la scalas available, about 20 mins away. The cornwalls id be getting, will require a 3 hour drive each way. A bit of a hassle I admit. I realize the horn loaded bass of the la scala provides tighter, and faster bass. Im rather unsure at this point as to between which would be my best route honestly..  

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I've owned La Scalas and Cornwalls (among others).  For overall sound, I actually prefer the Cornwalls but just slightly (which surprised me as Cornwalls were my first Klipsch speakers and I longed for La Scalas for a very long time).  Both are great, and both sound amazing with tube amps.  I currently have Cornwall IIs and have run them with 2-1/2 watt SET amps.  I've had no issues with volume but you might if you like it really loud and have a large room.  2-1/2 watts goes a long way with high efficiency speakers.

 

It is true, tube amps are in fact audio jewelry.  They are, however, also ear candy.

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34 minutes ago, jkull said:

I desire a setup that sounds good at low levels. While a chunk of my listening is aggressive forms of music, I enjoy low to moderate levels usually. Between the ability for the la scalas and cornwalls to both sound fantastic at low levels, a low wattage tube amp matched to them should enable enjoyable-low level listening. I do also listen to a lot of cello work, arco bass work, jazz, and female vocal driven music. Obviously some characteristics of listening are desired more with these sorts of music as opposed to heavier music. I understand that there is always a compromise and that no combination of amp/pre amp/source/speaker etc, will do every genre the best. I am okay with the highs being a bit rounded or some smoothness over-ruling all out attack in presentation.

Here are some amps that will meet every one of your desires other than the "rounded highs" you're willing to live with:

 

 

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11 hours ago, richieb said:

 

"IMHO, tubes are audio jewelry". As a very famous speaker designer/engineer once said "Bulllshit". 

 
 
 

Correct, PWK called BS needing tubes if not in print, but in practice. Bob Crites went on record that PWK switched over to solid state in 1971.

 

Tubes cost more per watt with nothing to add but potential disadvantages over a well made solid state.

 

Moreover, PWK wrote in a 1977 Dope about how well made solid state amps perform just as well with *some* still not performing as well until proper negative feedback loops were developed. Tube flat earthers still like to fall back on this early accurate, but no longer relevant criticism on SS as if it were still relevant today, and it's not.

 

Tubes are one of the biggest lies in audio, but who am I to get in the way of a fool and his money.

 

See signature link

 

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If your into highly technical home theatre it would take several houses  full of tube equipment to duplicate what one SS AVR does nowadays. But then again I was born, raised, and educated  on tubes and all of their deficiencies. Leaning on a 75kw Klystron tube in the upper 450-900 meg range.

JJK

JJKLYSTR.jpg

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54 minutes ago, ATLAudio said:

Correct, PWK called BS needing tubes if not in print, but in practice. Bob Crites went on record that PWK switched over to solid state in 1971.

 

Tubes cost more per watt with nothing to add but potential disadvantages over a well made solid state.

 

Moreover, PWK wrote in a 1977 Dope about how well made solid state amps perform just as well with *some* still not performing as well until proper negative feedback loops were developed. Tube flat earthers still like to fall back on this early accurate, but no longer relevant criticism on SS as if it were still relevant today, and it's not.

 

Tubes are one of the biggest lies in audio, but who am I to get in the way of a fool and his money.

 

 
 

 

Did that cause local brown outs? lol

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11 hours ago, jkull said:

Thank you to all of the above responders.

 

I will collectively place my responding thoughts to several above comments. First off, i have done a few tube/SS comparisons now. It 'seems' to be clear to me that my ears prefer tubes. In regards to audio jewelry. Ill be honest, yes, my eyes prefer them too... And this does help. I have a soft spot for tube amplification in my long experience with guitar and bass amps, as in that world, there is no comparison, tubes take the cake in all ways.

 

I desire a setup that sounds good at low levels. While a chunk of my listening is aggressive forms of music, I enjoy low to moderate levels usually. Between the ability for the la scalas and cornwalls to both sound fantastic at low levels, a low wattage tube amp matched to them should enable enjoyable-low level listening. I do also listen to a lot of cello work, arco bass work, jazz, and female vocal driven music. Obviously some characteristics of listening are desired more with these sorts of music as opposed to heavier music. I understand that there is always a compromise and that no combination of amp/pre amp/source/speaker etc, will do every genre the best. I am okay with the highs being a bit rounded or some smoothness over-ruling all out attack in presentation. 

 

I have heard la scalas at this point. However, I have not heard cornwalls. Honest truth. A few of you are suggesting the la scalas over the cornwalls. There is a nice pair of all original raw birch la scalas available, about 20 mins away. The cornwalls id be getting, will require a 3 hour drive each way. A bit of a hassle I admit. I realize the horn loaded bass of the la scala provides tighter, and faster bass. Im rather unsure at this point as to between which would be my best route honestly..  

16

"I have a soft spot for tube amplification in my long experience with guitar and bass amps, as in that world, there is no comparison, tubes take the cake in all ways."

For the purposes of musical PROduction, tubes' inherent advantages, softer clipping at distortion simply sounds better than solid state comes into play in ways it should NEVER come into play with REproduction. Since so much electric guitar and bass production is done at distortion it's a very good idea to go with tubes; in production. It's also the ART that is being produced. A musician could prefer an amp with a hole kicked in it and now it sounds perfect!

 

"First off, i have done a few tube/SS comparisons now."

Were your comparisons ABX and level matched? Probably not, I haven't either, but you can read about those which are. Tube lose all the time. Google machine.

 

"a low wattage tube amp matched to them should enable enjoyable-low level listening"

As would a well made SS amp of either low or high power, and cost less, or even way much less. At a later day you could also take the high power SS amp and crank it up. I think I know where you're coming from, and this sounds like a rehashed argument which I mentioned before. Up until the 70s the amount of crossover distortion, especially at low wattage made SS sound inferior. This argument has gone the way of the first dinosaur. Well made SS don't suffer from this. It kills me that this argument won't die! It's like telling me I still need to buy leaded gasoline. 

 

"no combination of amp/pre amp/source/speaker etc, will do every genre the best."

Disagree on all but speakers. Assuming everything is of well-made quality your speaker (selection and placement) should account for any audio taste variation. This is especially the case when you bring a well made, rock solid flat SS to the table which costs less, lasts longer, etc 

 

A few of you are suggesting the la scalas over the cornwalls.

The Lascalas are fully horn loaded and provide the advantages you said. The Scalas will more likely demand the need for a sub, but some say it's fine without depending on room and placement. For me, I'll always have subs

 

 

 

 

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15 minutes ago, ATLAudio said:

Were your comparisons ABX and level matched? Probably not, I haven't either, but you can read about those which are. Tube lose all the time.

Well, that just depends.  Tubes done right, or at least conforming to prevailing engineering norms, are remarkably indistinguishable from solid state power.  Bob Cordell used to do these sort of comparisons at trade shows like RMAF.  When level matched and unclipped, nobody could reliably pick tubes from ss!  Of course, such tube amps are costly.  And what's the point if it costs an arm and a leg and sounds the same?  I think that's why many of us like the more "hair shirt" designs like SET, because they indeed do sound different, not to mention simpler, easier to build, and far less expensive.

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The only "proof" I need is in the listening.  I am capable of imagining there might exist a few or many SS amps that would bring me as much bliss as tubes but I have already arrived at a happy place with my tube amps.  Tubes going bad has been extremely rare (one rectifier) for me and power tubes have lasted many thousands of hours.   I can happily move to fixing more pressing issues such as improving my room, tweaking speaker and seat placement.   Perhaps I could have arrived at a similar state of happiness at less cost.   I know I've saved a ton through the sharing that occurs here!

 

These "My dad's boat is better than your dad's boat" type of arguments get old.

 

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