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Cornwalls with tubes


jkull

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1 hour ago, ATLAudio said:

"I have a soft spot for tube amplification in my long experience with guitar and bass amps, as in that world, there is no comparison, tubes take the cake in all ways."

For the purposes of musical PROduction, tubes' inherent advantages, softer clipping at distortion simply sounds better than solid state comes into play in ways it should NEVER come into play with REproduction. Since so much electric guitar and bass production is done at distortion it's a very good idea to go with tubes; in production. It's also the ART that is being produced. A musician could prefer an amp with a hole kicked in it and now it sounds perfect!

 

"First off, i have done a few tube/SS comparisons now."

Were your comparisons ABX and level matched? Probably not, I haven't either, but you can read about those which are. Tube lose all the time. Google machine.

 

"a low wattage tube amp matched to them should enable enjoyable-low level listening"

As would a well made SS amp of either low or high power, and cost less, or even way much less. At a later day you could also take the high power SS amp and crank it up. I think I know where you're coming from, and this sounds like a rehashed argument which I mentioned before. Up until the 70s the amount of crossover distortion, especially at low wattage made SS sound inferior. This argument has gone the way of the first dinosaur. Well made SS don't suffer from this. It kills me that this argument won't die! It's like telling me I still need to buy leaded gasoline. 

 

"no combination of amp/pre amp/source/speaker etc, will do every genre the best."

Disagree on all but speakers. Assuming everything is of well-made quality your speaker (selection and placement) should account for any audio taste variation. This is especially the case when you bring a well made, rock solid flat SS to the table which costs less, lasts longer, etc 

 

A few of you are suggesting the la scalas over the cornwalls.

The Lascalas are fully horn loaded and provide the advantages you said. The Scalas will more likely demand the need for a sub, but some say it's fine without depending on room and placement. For me, I'll always have subs

 

Its not a rehashed argument. I enjoy the insight and discussion!  And I do take acknowledgement to your logical points indeed. I did not have two system running side by side with the same components in the chain, level matched, no. I have ran a tube amp in comparison to SS in the chain, in the same room. There are some tube amps that sound more like solid state, and some that sound more lush etc, often due to the shortcomings of their performance coloring the sound.  Sometimes in a nice way, sometimes not. 

1 hour ago, Ski Bum said:

Well, that just depends.  Tubes done right, or at least conforming to prevailing engineering norms, are remarkably indistinguishable from solid state power.  Bob Cordell used to do these sort of comparisons at trade shows like RMAF.  When level matched and unclipped, nobody could reliably pick tubes from ss!  Of course, such tube amps are costly.  And what's the point if it costs an arm and a leg and sounds the same?  I think that's why many of us like the more "hair shirt" designs like SET, because they indeed do sound different, not to mention simpler, easier to build, and far less expensive.

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I am leaning towards the Line Magnetic 219ia at this point.  24w per channel 845/300B combo SET.  Steve Huff reviewed this amp and claimed it as the most impressive amp he has ever heard. 

 

 

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1 hour ago, muel said:

The only "proof" I need is in the listening.  I am capable of imagining there might exist a few or many SS amps that would bring me as much bliss as tubes but I have already arrived at a happy place with my tube amps.  Tubes going bad has been extremely rare (one rectifier) for me and power tubes have lasted many thousands of hours.   I can happily move to fixing more pressing issues such as improving my room, tweaking speaker and seat placement.   Perhaps I could have arrived at a similar state of happiness at less cost.   I know I've saved a ton through the sharing that occurs here!

 

These "My dad's boat is better than your dad's boat" type of arguments get old.

 

Well said.

 

With all due respect to those who would tell me what I should and should not like, that overbearing air of superiority does get really old, really fast.

 

Please remember that the only person I have to satisfy with my system is me. And in 40+ years of audio as a hobby, I prefer tubes. 

 

If anyone prefers something different, I think that is wonderful. Whatever prompts you to listen to more music.

 

This will be my only comment on this particular subject.

 

Now, back to talking about tubes and La Scalas and Cornwalls. :)

 

Did I happen to state that I really like 845 based SET amps on La Scalas? :)

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21 minutes ago, TubeHiFiNut said:

Well said.

 

With all due respect to those who would tell me what I should and should not like, that overbearing air of superiority does get really old, really fast.

 

Please remember that the only person I have to satisfy with my system is me. And in 40+ years of audio as a hobby, I prefer tubes. 

 

If anyone prefers something different, I think that is wonderful. Whatever prompts you to listen to more music.

 

This will be my only comment on this particular subject.

 

Now, back to talking about tubes and La Scalas and Cornwalls. :)

 

Did I happen to state that I really like 845 based SET amps on La Scalas? :)

Is that right?  What 845 SET amps have you heard on them. Would love to know.  Thanks!

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2 hours ago, jkull said:

 

Its not a rehashed argument. I enjoy the insight and discussion!  And I do take acknowledgement to your logical points indeed. I did not have two system running side by side with the same components in the chain, level matched, no. I have ran a tube amp in comparison to SS in the chain, in the same room. There are some tube amps that sound more like solid state, and some that sound more lush etc, often due to the shortcomings of their performance coloring the sound.  Sometimes in a nice way, sometimes not. 

 

 

By all means, if I had a closet full of MC275s from a lifetime of being in the hobby, I could see myself finding a use for them. I have heard tubes in show-rooms, and honestly, I couldn't tell a serious difference. Then again, I usually request to hear from SS just so I'm not introduced to tube colorations which are routinely added to tubes; I'd prefer my tastes uncorrupted. 

 

I certainly wasn't suggesting you do an ABX test, as neither have I. But, many have been done and there's no benefit unless you're going for a thinner wallet. But you've already got some tubes laying around it seems, so there's that.

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I use both, tube and SS.  I like both and in the last 4-5 years, can't pick a clear winner.  The bottom line is buy what you like and like what you buy.  We can only report our own subjective experience since measurement, coloration and the likes, can't determine what someone likes.

 

I don't care about measurement, coloration, ect., I only need to like what I hear with my less than audiophile ears.

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In my case, I can definitely hear a difference between tubes and solid-state and it is not imagined nor some other situation where I'm trying to justify an expense.  I'm not one that buys expensive power cords, interconnects, and lifts the speaker-wire off the floor because I fell for someone's marketing gimmicks.  Believe me, if I could find a solid-state amp that sounded as good as my tube amp, I would switch in a second (assuming I could afford it).  Tube amps are finicky, generate more heat, and generally aren't as reliable as solid-state.  More expensive -- well, not so much for me compared to the solid-state amps I used to own.  Going with tubes requires an extra level of commitment and it definitely is not for everyone.  I did not want to prefer tube amplifiers for many of the reasons I mentioned above, but by golly when I first heard one I was hooked!  The difference was immediately noticeable to my ears.

 

Now, I can envision there are cases where the benefit of tube amps won't be realized and could even be detrimental. I suspect there are some speakers that will work just as good if not better with solid-state and I think there are also music types that would follow suit.  For example, I don't listen to "electronic music" or rap but those are music types that I could imagine possibly not benefiting from tubes.  Where tubes really do excel over solid state is with vocals.

 

I do realize as I get older and my hearing degrades, there may become a time when I am unable to differentiate the benefits of the tube sound.

 

The #1 quality I look for in my system is musicality.  Characteristics such as frequency response, imaging, sound stage, and even accuracy come in afterwards.  I prefer the sound of live music (not talking about high volume) as that is the most musical in my experience and tubes get me closer to a live performance.  When I switched to tubes, I switched from listening to the system to listening to the music.  I've gotten much more enjoyment out of my system since making that switch!

 

By the way, my wife also noticed the improvement with tubes and she could care less about the tube vs. solid-state debate.

 

To the O.P., let your ears tell you what they prefer and for sure don't be fooled by those that are trying to sell you something.  Do yourself and your wallet a favor and see if you can audition the various types of amps before you buy.

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Yep, buy what sounds good. I had Wright Sound Company 2a3 SETs with my khorns (great for vocal/guitar, realistic volume jazz etc) big Mac solid State, (you could get the Who or Zeppelin to show up) and now I'm on the Luxman SQ38U EL34 25 wpc integrated, a compromise, but in my estimation a good one(I can get Count Basie and sorta get The Who to show, not quite the authority of the mighty Mac) . I'd like to try a Luxman 20 watt Class A SS amp too. I think at some point a well designed amp, is a well designed amp whether tube or SS. It's your money, go listen and decide for yourself. And your tastes may change. Or, you may get bored. You won't get scolded for buying cool hifi around here! :)

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7 hours ago, jkull said:

Is that right?  What 845 SET amps have you heard on them. Would love to know.  Thanks!

Currently running CazTech SE-845 monoblocks.

 

Thinking seriously about getting one of the Line Magnetic 845 based amps to compare. Then I fire up the CazTech/La Scala combination and get really side tracked listening to the music. :)

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1 hour ago, JMON said:

In my case, I can definitely hear a difference between tubes and solid-state and it is not imagined nor some other situation where I'm trying to justify an expense.  I'm not one that buys expensive power cords, interconnects, and lifts the speaker-wire off the floor because I fell for someone's marketing gimmicks.  Believe me, if I could find a solid-state amp that sounded as good as my tube amp, I would switch in a second (assuming I could afford it).  Tube amps are finicky, generate more heat, and generally aren't as reliable as solid-state.  More expensive -- well, not so much for me compared to the solid-state amps I used to own.  Going with tubes requires an extra level of commitment and it definitely is not for everyone.  I did not want to prefer tube amplifiers for many of the reasons I mentioned above, but by golly when I first heard one I was hooked!  The difference was immediately noticeable to my ears.

 

Now, I can envision there are cases where the benefit of tube amps won't be realized and could even be detrimental. I suspect there are some speakers that will work just as good if not better with solid-state and I think there are also music types that would follow suit.  For example, I don't listen to "electronic music" or rap but those are music types that I could imagine possibly not benefiting from tubes.  Where tubes really do excel over solid state is with vocals.

 

I do realize as I get older and my hearing degrades, there may become a time when I am unable to differentiate the benefits of the tube sound.

 

The #1 quality I look for in my system is musicality.  Characteristics such as frequency response, imaging, sound stage, and even accuracy come in afterwards.  I prefer the sound of live music (not talking about high volume) as that is the most musical in my experience and tubes get me closer to a live performance.  When I switched to tubes, I switched from listening to the system to listening to the music.  I've gotten much more enjoyment out of my system since making that switch!

 

By the way, my wife also noticed the improvement with tubes and she could care less about the tube vs. solid-state debate.

 

To the O.P., let your ears tell you what they prefer and for sure don't be fooled by those that are trying to sell you something.  Do yourself and your wallet a favor and see if you can audition the various types of amps before you buy.

3
 

"I did not want to prefer tube amplifiers for many of the reasons I mentioned above, but by golly when I first heard one I was hooked!  The difference was immediately noticeable to my ears."

 

Here's the deal; for the purposes of reproduction, there is absolutely no scientifically discernable reason for tube amplifiers to have intrinsically "better voices" or sound intrinsically better with different styles of music over solid-state amplifiers assuming both have the same flat frequency response. Assuming wattage and ohm stability are the same, the only way I know of an amplifier, of any design, having intrinsical advantages here would be because of colorations in frequency response. But, my question remains, why in the hec would you want your amp to do this?!

 

"The #1 quality I look for in my system is musicality.  Characteristics such as frequency response, imaging, sound stage, and even accuracy come in afterwards."

 

You'd think that the textbook definition of sonic perfection might be the faithful and accurate replication of a signal from a source; music with nothing added or taken away. The signal sent to the speakers would be as true as possible to the original but as a precise magnified version of the waveform fed into the amplifier. But no, you don't have to go far until you have folks who will demand that this waveform should not be truly accurate! It should be changed in some way from its original source and that the tube amplifier adds some sort of magical universal and beneficial coloration! The tube amp is then given terms to describe the sound like something from a restaurant or wine-review, like lush, or fluid, or warm, while the solid state is said to be cold, barren, or rocky. Or we have in your case, saying something which is clearly self-defined, like "musicallity." I want accuracy from my amp, and I want as much accuracy for the dollar that I can get. Demanding less than accurate reproduction, and spending more to do it is simply the exact opposite. Accuracy is a universal definition, which I can't hide from using my own subjective dictionary. 

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The point which many miss in these discussions (which have raged for decades) is what constitutes "accuracy."  If we're talking about measuring the source material and determining if the amplification device perfectly reproduces it without modification that's one thing.  But, if we're talking about hearing an accurate reproduction, that's another.  With the frequency response of the ears being different from one another (and, of course, different from one person to the next), and the associated issues of room acoustics and speaker response variations, I venture that no one is listening to a totally "accurate" reproduction of the source material.  In the final analysis, it really doesn't matter one way or the other.  What counts is reproduction which the listener finds pleasing.  I could care less if I need to have 2% second harmonic distortion to be happy.  Better that than lower distortion which makes me want to turn off the music.

 

Maynard

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5 hours ago, tube fanatic said:

The point which many miss in these discussions (which have raged for decades) is what constitutes "accuracy."  If we're talking about measuring the source material and determining if the amplification device perfectly reproduces it without modification that's one thing.  But, if we're talking about hearing an accurate reproduction, that's another.  With the frequency response of the ears being different from one another (and, of course, different from one person to the next), and the associated issues of room acoustics and speaker response variations, I venture that no one is listening to a totally "accurate" reproduction of the source material.  In the final analysis, it really doesn't matter one way or the other.  What counts is reproduction which the listener finds pleasing.  I could care less if I need to have 2% second harmonic distortion to be happy.  Better that than lower distortion which makes me want to turn off the music.

 

Maynard

Accuracy from the amp compared to the source is, in fact, all we should be talking about here. But you're right in a sense, we should dive into the last part, and weakest part of the chain; the speakers. I guess you just haven't connected all the dots; so here's my question: Why would you spend a premium (and tube amps almost always are- most ridiculously so) for this signal to be colored, if you have a proper understanding as to what happens to that signal when your speakers and room get ahold of it (and it appears that you do)?

 

What you hear out of the speakers, no matter the amp WILL be colored due to speaker selection, speaker placement, room selection, and room condition, and all to a much greater and astronomically unpredictable extent than any colorations an amp introduces can possibly be prepared for to deliver any kind of universal benefit. An amp designer can't possibly introduce a single beneficial coloration which tube amp lovers see as so broadly appealing; like vocals, music type, or all the words that they make up, that can survive what happens to the signal when it leaves the amp.

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7 hours ago, tube fanatic said:

The point which many miss in these discussions (which have raged for decades) is what constitutes "accuracy."  If we're talking about measuring the source material and determining if the amplification device perfectly reproduces it without modification that's one thing.  But, if we're talking about hearing an accurate reproduction, that's another.  With the frequency response of the ears being different from one another (and, of course, different from one person to the next), and the associated issues of room acoustics and speaker response variations, I venture that no one is listening to a totally "accurate" reproduction of the source material.  In the final analysis, it really doesn't matter one way or the other.  What counts is reproduction which the listener finds pleasing.  I could care less if I need to have 2% second harmonic distortion to be happy.  Better that than lower distortion which makes me want to turn off the music.

 

Maynard

 

That pretty much sums it up.

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3 hours ago, ATLAudio said:

Accuracy from the amp compared to the source is, in fact, all we should be talking about here. But you're right in a sense, we should dive into the last part, and weakest part of the chain; the speakers. I guess you just haven't connected all the dots; so here's my question: Why would you spend a premium (and tube amps almost always are- most ridiculously so) for this signal to be colored, if you have a proper understanding as to what happens to that signal when your speakers and room get ahold of it (and it appears that you do)?

 

What you hear out of the speakers, no matter the amp WILL be colored due to speaker selection, speaker placement, room selection, and room condition, and all to a much greater and astronomically unpredictable extent than any colorations an amp introduces can possibly be prepared for to deliver any kind of universal benefit. An amp designer can't possibly introduce a single beneficial coloration which tube amp lovers see as so broadly appealing; like vocals, music type, or all the words that they make up, that can survive what happens to the signal when it leaves the amp.

So, if I understand your point correctly, you are saying that it is not possible to make a blanket recommendation for tube amps in all systems.  I totally agree with you.  There has to be the proper synergy between any amp and the system in which it is used, and that applies to SS equipment as well.  Being the Klipsch forum, however, the assumption is usually that a person is going to use a tube amp with Klipsch speakers.  And that's where the universal recommendation can be made in my opinion.  I have never heard a Heritage Series speaker (and various Reference Series speakers) which sounds poorly with tube amplification (unless the amplifier is a disaster- there are many examples of SS amps in this category as well).  To my ears it's the opposite.  But, that said, auditioning an amp in each system is imperative and that's why I try to restrict my activities to the local area.  Here, I can try various amps to allow a person to select what they consider is the best sound.

 

As to all tube amps having a premium price tag, that's nonsense.  Of course, some are ridiculously priced as are some SS amps.  Yet, there's a great deal of equipment out there which is very inexpensive and does a very fine job.

 

Regarding choosing equipment which colors the sound in some way over that which doesn't, I can only say that many find certain colorations pleasing.  My second harmonic example above is one of them.  And, some coloration may actually negate the effects generated by the speaker and room resulting in a better presentation for that particular system.  Again, it's a matter of individual preference and is no different from one person preferring vanilla over chocolate ice cream.

 

It would be great if some of the SS guys joined in with this and described their experiences with different types of gear.  I know that many SS users on here have gone through frequent changes of amps/receivers until they achieved the sound they were looking for.  And, in my own experience, I have serviced much SS gear and have found huge differences in sound when tested with the same speakers.  I'm speaking of equipment with very low levels of distortion.

 

This is an informative discussion for those interested in hearing the differing points of view about this hobby.  

 

Maynard 

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23 hours ago, ATLAudio said:

Here's the deal; for the purposes of reproduction, there is absolutely no scientifically discernable reason for tube amplifiers to have intrinsically "better voices" or sound intrinsically better with different styles of music over solid-state amplifiers assuming both have the same flat frequency response. Assuming wattage and ohm stability are the same, the only way I know of an amplifier, of any design, having intrinsical advantages here would be because of colorations in frequency response. But, my question remains, why in the hec would you want your amp to do this?!

Simple -- I prefer the colorations of tubes over the colorations of solid-state.

 

23 hours ago, ATLAudio said:

You'd think that the textbook definition of sonic perfection might be the faithful and accurate replication of a signal from a source; music with nothing added or taken away. The signal sent to the speakers would be as true as possible to the original but as a precise magnified version of the waveform fed into the amplifier. But no, you don't have to go far until you have folks who will demand that this waveform should not be truly accurate! It should be changed in some way from its original source and that the tube amplifier adds some sort of magical universal and beneficial coloration! The tube amp is then given terms to describe the sound like something from a restaurant or wine-review, like lush, or fluid, or warm, while the solid state is said to be cold, barren, or rocky. Or we have in your case, saying something which is clearly self-defined, like "musicallity." I want accuracy from my amp, and I want as much accuracy for the dollar that I can get. Demanding less than accurate reproduction, and spending more to do it is simply the exact opposite. Accuracy is a universal definition, which I can't hide from using my own subjective dictionary. 

I agree that the goal of sonic perfection would be the "faithful and accurate replication of a signal from a source; music with nothing added or taken away."  So how do you know that you are actually getting that?  By taking measurements?  Sure, that's the way that it is done but the devices being used to measure for accuracy are electronic instruments and those electronic instruments do not behave the same way that the human ear behaves along with he corresponding interaction between the human ear and the human brain.  There are no instruments available to this point that can accurately simulate those organic devices. Then don't forge that all human ears hear differently, including the two on your own head. I won't even get into the differences in brains...

 

Overall, tubes are more accurate to me. They sound more like music to me.  Yes, with solid-state I can hear the music and all the instruments, but I always can tell it is a musical reproduction.  I get closer to the sound of live music with tubes.  That is the type of accuracy I'm interested in.

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16 hours ago, tube fanatic said:

So, if I understand your point correctly, you are saying that it is not possible to make a blanket recommendation for tube amps in all systems.  I totally agree with you.  There has to be the proper synergy between any amp and the system in which it is used, and that applies to SS equipment as well.  Being the Klipsch forum, however, the assumption is usually that a person is going to use a tube amp with Klipsch speakers.  And that's where the universal recommendation can be made in my opinion.  I have never heard a Heritage Series speaker (and various Reference Series speakers) which sounds poorly with tube amplification (unless the amplifier is a disaster- there are many examples of SS amps in this category as well).  To my ears it's the opposite.  But, that said, auditioning an amp in each system is imperative and that's why I try to restrict my activities to the local area.  Here, I can try various amps to allow a person to select what they consider is the best sound.

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“So, if I understand your point correctly, you are saying that it is not possible to make a blanket recommendation for tube amps in all systems.  I totally agree with you.”

However, this is routinely given by tube enthusiasts

 

“There has to be the proper synergy between any amp and the system in which it is used, and that applies to SS equipment as well.” 

 

Please explain to me, scientifically, the synergies which at least routinely line up that provide benefit for a tube amplifier vs a solid state. I disagree that this applies to solid state equipment that is equally well made, and matched for frequency response, power output, and ohm stability.

 

“Being the Klipsch forum, however, the assumption is usually that a person is going to use a tube amp with Klipsch speakers.  And that's where the universal recommendation can be made in my opinion.”

 

There are 100’s of Klipsch speakers, all with their own characteristics, you simply can’t do this with any sort of scientific reliability. I also disagree that your universal recommendation can be made with specific models. You’re forgetting speaker placement, room selection, and room condition, all of which can’t possibly predicted by an amp designer for consistent benefit.

 

“I have never heard a Heritage Series speaker (and various Reference Series speakers) which sounds poorly with tube amplification (unless the amplifier is a disaster- there are many examples of SS amps in this category as well).  To my ears it's the opposite.  But, that said, auditioning an amp in each system is imperative and that's why I try to restrict my activities to the local area.  Here, I can try various amps to allow a person to select what they consider is the best sound.”

 

I’m equally certain too, because I’ve heard them before that there are tube amps that sound fantastic. If an MC275 fell in my lap today, I’d be gone for the next few days from this forum playing with it. I might burn a vacation day. However, the odds of me buying one or pretty low, more on that later. I’m equally certain that any amp comparison, when properly controlled, will sound exactly the same. This is what Bob Carver did with feedback loops in a hotel ball room. He made his $500 solid state amp test and sound indistinguishable from a $30,000 tube amp which all the woo prone from the audio press said was the best.  

 

“As to all tube amps having a premium price tag, that's nonsense.  Of course, some are ridiculously priced as are some SS amps.  Yet, there's a great deal of equipment out there which is very inexpensive and does a very fine job.”

 

I ignore all exotic gear, solid state included. Pick up an audio magazine, none of those tube amps are reasonably priced. I can’t find a tube equivalent to my Emotiva XPA-2 without spending thousands and thousands more. List price new at purchase time was $700. Specs are online. Please prove me wrong.

 

“Regarding choosing equipment which colors the sound in some way over that which doesn't, I can only say that many find certain colorations pleasing.  My second harmonic example above is one of them.” 

 

Second order harmonics are hard to detect unless there’s a lot of it, like when you’re running at distortion levels by clipping or approaching clipping levels of your amp. Guitar amps do this, and that’s fine, that’s the artists canvas. Yes, tubes do this better “naturally” but SS can do it too- see NAD soft clipping technology, and again, if the artist wanted more distortion, he’d had added it on his/her end. Why do you want to add something to the art? I find this mind boggling. A wise man once said something about accuracy in reproduction having a premium.

 

“And, some coloration may actually negate the effects generated by the speaker and room resulting in a better presentation for that particular system.  Again, it's a matter of individual preference and is no different from one person preferring vanilla over chocolate ice cream.”

Again, how can the amp designer come up with a single, built in coloration which would survive speaker selection, speaker placement, room selection, and room placement?

 

“It would be great if some of the SS guys joined in with this and described their experiences with different types of gear.  I know that many SS users on here have gone through frequent changes of amps/receivers until they achieved the sound they were looking for.  And, in my own experience, I have serviced much SS gear and have found huge differences in sound when tested with the same speakers.  I'm speaking of equipment with very low levels of distortion.”

 

My experience is that when frequency response, power output, ohm stability is properly controlled then there is no difference in a solid state amp. However, there are more choices which don’t cost an exotic premium on the solid state end. Most of the time when SS amps are compared, they aren't comparing different bottles of exotic priced snake oil. 

 

“This is an informative discussion for those interested in hearing the differing points of view about this hobby.”

 

I simply think that this discussion should have been settled in the 70s, but alas…  

 

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9 hours ago, JMON said:

Simple -- I prefer the colorations of tubes over the colorations of solid-state.

 

 
 

“I agree that the goal of sonic perfection would be the "faithful and accurate replication of a signal from a source; music with nothing added or taken away."  So how do you know that you are actually getting that?  By taking measurements?”

 

I usually review independent measurements of amplifiers prior to purchase, so yeah.

 

“Sure, that's the way that it is done but the devices being used to measure for accuracy are electronic instruments and those electronic instruments do not behave the same way that the human ear behaves along with he corresponding interaction between the human ear and the human brain.”

 

As you continue in my following sentence, I’m referring to a comparison of the output signal from the amp compared output signal from the source. The goal should be for it be accurate, but amplified. You can’t hear this, I’m not referring to whats heard out of the speakers

 

“There are no instruments available to this point that can accurately simulate those organic devices. Then don't forge that all human ears hear differently, including the two on your own head. I won't even get into the differences in brains.”

 

This sounds like something rooted in a naturalistic fallacy. If this were the case then there would be no science in sound above and below the threshold of human hearing. We have measurement devices which are far more sophisticated and sensitive than human ears. As a matter of fact; we can change a litany of sonic effects that can’t be detected in blind ABX comparisons. But holding all that aside, you only helped prove my point and expand on my question I’ve asked; how can an amp designer make a single coloration which survives speaker selection, speaker placement, room selection, and room condition. Now toss in 12 billion ears on this planet. 

 

“Overall, tubes are more accurate to me.”

 

This is nonsensical. You can’t use “accurate” without changing its definition. If we can’t rely on a word accuracy to mean what it means, toss the whole dictionary in the garbage. If you like colorations to source material, then you are IN FACT, not seeking accuracy. Sorry. There are some tube amps which test just as accurate as solid state, so if there’s still a sonic benefit, what’s the secret sauce?  

 

“(Tubes) sound more like music to me. Yes, with solid-state I can hear the music and all the instruments, but I always can tell it is a musical reproduction. I get closer to the sound of live music with tubes. That is the type of accuracy I'm interested in.”

 

Accuracy is an either it’s there or it’s not. If the artist wanted you to hear some colorations which you insist are apparent with your tube amp present, he could have added them, and I’d hear them in my SS; that’s accuracy. Again, what secret sauce in tube amps which does this universally, and with consistency past speaker selection, speaker placement, room selection, and room condition.

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