Cornwalls with tubes

[ATLAudio]

I was using the best Emotiva with the closest power output as the LM for price comparisons. It seems you made a lot of assumptions about how to properly troubleshoot and or repair the monoblocks, to say nothing of your home wiring. If not Emotiva, there are countless models costing much much less than the LM, and you've yet to answer my questions regarding this amp's claims for the money. 

 

There are hundreds of happy customers with Emotiva amps and Heritage. I wouldn't consider them the best choice, but certainly not bad. I'd not be terribly surprised if the LM sounds better, but I'm certain that the best sound for Cornwalls is in an amp far cheaper and more accurate. Like I said, I would demand to know why I'd need to spend thousands and thousands of dollars for the LM, and if someone asked I'd gladly tell them. 

 

I think McIntosh, SS or valve, are also audio jewelry for the most part. So I'm not sure where you were going there.

 

As for amps for sensitive speakers; the Cornwalls are 100 watt RMS. Amplifier technology is a mature technology, and it doesn't cost that much to purchase a 100 watt amp which will amplify the signal from the source and nothing else; allowing your speakers to do the singing. What's silly is investing in a revealing and accurate set of speakers and spending far more money on an amplifier which perverts that revealing and accurate reproduction. 

 

[mike stehr]

9 minutes ago, ATLAudio said:

but I'm certain that the best sound for Cornwalls is in an amp far cheaper and more accurate.

 

Doubtful it's more accurate than the Line Magnetic, but way more cheaper!

Tubes are audio jewelry...maybe so, but they can also be a choice of great sound for the dirt poor.

 

It's just a hobby about listening to music or enjoying movies on the home theater merry go round. Everyone is different, with different tastes in music/movies or whatever. Some like digital sources, some like analog...like them dirty ol' sounding records.

Some folks enjoy the hobby within their means, some can afford to indulge a bit more. What's wrong with that?

If a guy had the money allotted, or acquired a unit through a trade, or a bit of both, that doesn't make him a fool.

 

You've made your point, and he doesn't need to answer your question.

[jimjimbo]

Audio jewelry? Sorry, that's bullshit.

[tromprof]

Always enjoy debates about which amp sounds better.

Kind of like being at a well stocked bar and debating which beer tastes better. Hell, just try them all!

[Wolfbane]

From my perspective Cornwall's without tubes is like a day without sunshine.

[Lemon string]

I find this interesting. I shared my journey with my Cornwalls at the beginning of this thread. There are several factors at play here.... speakers, amp and pre. I believe its all about matching the impedance and input sensitivity of each in the chain. When I started my journey I had a Yamaha AVR on RF-82's it was an exciting sound but as time went on I noticed the noise floor was always present, not a black background, I could hear the system at my listening position between songs. I then went to a Emotiva UMC-2 powered by an Adcom  2565, Dramatic improvement! The background became darker presenting the music with more detail and better dynamics. As time went on though I thought that the music could sound more open and transparent, the system didn't sound as natural as other systems I had heard. I decided that Cornwalls would be the upgrade that would deliver the sound I wanted. A three way with higher efficiency. I bought a pair of CWII's and yep the sound stage was wider, deeper and produced a phantom center speaker unlike any I had heard before, as well as a fantastic mid range. The CW's though with their higher efficiency revealed the noise floor. I decided to venture into tubes. I decided that Class A power would be an important factor for the sound I wanted and an amp with a low signal to noise ratio. I bought a 12wSET that fit my wants from a small manufacture that makes amps for high sensitivity speakers and dedicated to producing playback that is full, transparent and reveals what the artists intended. The upgrade was the most significant to date. A/Bing between the adcom amps, with 65w a side, and the little 12w SET amp was mind blowing! No contest. Still I noticed a bit of a very faint high frequency hiss from the tweeters when the system was not playing music. I removed the Emotiva from the chain. The tube amp I bought has a line sensitivity for full output less than 200 MV RMS and doesn't require any gain from my source. I removed the Emotiva and the system became dead quite. I can turn the gain up all the way with no music playing put my ear to the speaker and hear nothing at all. 

 

I concluded that the Emotiva is fine and good its just not the best match for my speakers that have such a high sensitivity especially when paired with my amp that doesn't require the input gain. In my opinion the real issue is matching components and speakers isn't as simple as assuming that if a manufacturer makes quality products they will work with every other component, speaker and system out there. Different tools for different jobs. I believe that the majority of electronics being produced today aren't being made with our horn loaded speakers in mind and therefore matching the components is that more critical if one is really interested in hi fidelity. I firmly believe that with our speakers the first watt truly is the most important. 

 

Thats my two cents       

[jkull]

9 hours ago, ATLAudio said:

I was using the best Emotiva with the closest power output as the LM for price comparisons. It seems you made a lot of assumptions about how to properly troubleshoot and or repair the monoblocks, to say nothing of your home wiring. If not Emotiva, there are countless models costing much much less than the LM, and you've yet to answer my questions regarding this amp's claims for the money. 

 

There are hundreds of happy customers with Emotiva amps and Heritage. I wouldn't consider them the best choice, but certainly not bad. I'd not be terribly surprised if the LM sounds better, but I'm certain that the best sound for Cornwalls is in an amp far cheaper and more accurate. Like I said, I would demand to know why I'd need to spend thousands and thousands of dollars for the LM, and if someone asked I'd gladly tell them. 

 

I think McIntosh, SS or valve, are also audio jewelry for the most part. So I'm not sure where you were going there.

 

As for amps for sensitive speakers; the Cornwalls are 100 watt RMS. Amplifier technology is a mature technology, and it doesn't cost that much to purchase a 100 watt amp which will amplify the signal from the source and nothing else; allowing your speakers to do the singing. What's silly is investing in a revealing and accurate set of speakers and spending far more money on an amplifier which perverts that revealing and accurate reproduction. 

 

Why are you over analyzing my use of funds? I spent far under $7500. I did not purchase this amp to 'allocate an amp without hum'. There are plenty of amps that will not hum with cornwalls, the XPA-1 not being one of them for me personally. There are people that pay $8000 for a pair of cables man. Not that this matters, but we are talking about a very well built, point to point, dual mono, integrated SET amp for this price. If you do pay that full price, that is.

 

I stated earlier in this thread my desire for a tube amp. Why? Bc I listened to a few and the difference between tube and solid state is audible. Accurate reproduction is not the end to all goal. The goal is a pleasing listening that  makes you want to remain listening. This often means realistic production sure, but there are so many other characteristics that are important. Whether added distortion produced by valves enhances this ability or not, does not matter. It is clear that either your ears are inefficient in the sense of hearing differences in the characteristics of tubes and solid state, you have not spent time to do so yourself, or you're just too hung up on reading specs sheets. I posted a video a few pages back of a video showing two setups, same speakers, high end SS and high end tube design. They are the same manufacturer through the same sources, same speakers, same rooms. The reviewer and distributor have their choice (the tube amp), and the 'average' listener should be able to depict which sounds better from a low grade video like itself... well perhaps not yourself, as you are within the self proclaimed audio illuminati it appears, and you know all of the answers.  lol

 

I went with the LM 219ia because I decided I wanted to go the single ended route. I wanted a SET with more wattage than the 'average' SET amp. I wanted an amp with large transformers that can drive a large range of speakers to keep options open if I ever felt the need. This amp has been said to drive even quite low sensitivity speakers well. I wanted an amp that appealed to me visually. I wanted an amp with extremely positive feedback from individuals who had spent time with the amp. And lastly, at a decent price, which I paid.

 

Perhaps I should sell it and go purchase a $100 soundbar for my dedicated music listening time, as no matter what the route, it is evident that you would find some way to analyze, depict, or irrationally and comically denigrate my actions into, why this or why that. What is it that you would have preferred me to purchase? 

 

Are you familiar with Alan Shaw, and do you follow and endorse many of his silly audio philosophies and theories?

 

I am simply struggling to find the emotiva model l, to which you refer,  that costs roughly $30 brand new.. (1/15th the cost which you have indicated). Let alone a pre amp is still needed, so an integrated amp at that, for $30. Please point me to this miracle price point piece my friend...  ...It's too good to be true and must be audio bliss!  .   .    .  

 

This comment by you was unnecessary. You went from appropriate discussion to being vindictive;

"I certainly would feel an amp that hummed would be inferior to one that didn't.Doesn't take specs to figure that out. ".

 

Come on now...

 

You start off claiming that you think it may be something else in the chain causing the hum, and not the emotivas, which statistical measurements, which you love, have shown to be noisy circuits. You then change to perhaps agreeing at some point that maybe it is was the amps after all then jumping to the statement I just quoted above, honing in on that I eliminated the hum by purchasing a $7500 amp. Quit clowning.

. (Note the poster above this post had the same experience with his emo amp into his cornwalls. Wait, must be his poorly shielded and poor capacitance RCA cable!).. 

 

Note the multiple users in this thread alone which have found a desired result in tubes with cornwalls. Not to mention the abundancy of them on this forum

 

[jkull]

57 minutes ago, jkull said:

 

 

 

[TubeHiFiNut]

5 hours ago, mike stehr said:

 

Doubtful it's more accurate than the Line Magnetic, but way more cheaper!

Tubes are audio jewelry...maybe so, but they can also be a choice of great sound for the dirt poor.

 

It's just a hobby about listening to music or enjoying movies on the home theater merry go round. Everyone is different, with different tastes in music/movies or whatever. Some like digital sources, some like analog...like them dirty ol' sounding records.

Some folks enjoy the hobby within their means, some can afford to indulge a bit more. What's wrong with that?

If a guy had the money allotted, or acquired a unit through a trade, or a bit of both, that doesn't make him a fool.

 

You've made your point, and he doesn't need to answer your question.

Agree with your post with the exception of tubes being "audio jewelry".

 

For me, my ears, my system, my audio enjoyment, tubes - especially my SET and SEP amps - provide ME with a far more emotionally involving and satisfying audio experience. 

 

YMMV.....

[jkull]

17 hours ago, jkull said:

Why are you over analyzing my use of funds? I spent far under $7500. I did not purchase this amp to 'allocate an amp without hum'. There are plenty of amps that will not hum with cornwalls, the XPA-1 not being one of them for me personally. There are people that pay $8000 for a pair of cables man. Not that this matters, but we are talking about a very well built, point to point, dual mono, integrated SET amp for this price. If you do pay that full price, that is.

 

I stated earlier in this thread my desire for a tube amp. Why? Bc I listened to a few and the difference between tube and solid state is audible. Accurate reproduction is not the end to all goal. The goal is a pleasing listening that  makes you want to remain listening. This often means realistic production sure, but there are so many other characteristics that are important. Whether added distortion produced by valves enhances this ability or not, does not matter. It is clear that either your ears are inefficient in the sense of hearing differences in the characteristics of tubes and solid state, you have not spent time to do so yourself, or you're just too hung up on reading specs sheets. I posted a video a few pages back of a video showing two setups, same speakers, high end SS and high end tube design. They are the same manufacturer through the same sources, same speakers, same rooms. The reviewer and distributor have their choice (the tube amp), and the 'average' listener should be able to depict which sounds better from a low grade video like itself... well perhaps not yourself, as you are within the self proclaimed audio illuminati it appears, and you know all of the answers.  lol

 

I went with the LM 219ia because I decided I wanted to go the single ended route. I wanted a SET with more wattage than the 'average' SET amp. I wanted an amp with large transformers that can drive a large range of speakers to keep options open if I ever felt the need. This amp has been said to drive even quite low sensitivity speakers well. I wanted an amp that appealed to me visually. I wanted an amp with extremely positive feedback from individuals who had spent time with the amp. And lastly, at a decent price, which I paid.

 

Perhaps I should sell it and go purchase a $100 soundbar for my dedicated music listening time, as no matter what the route, it is evident that you would find some way to analyze, depict, or irrationally and comically denigrate my actions into, why this or why that. What is it that you would have preferred me to purchase? 

 

Are you familiar with Alan Shaw, and do you follow and endorse many of his silly audio philosophies and theories?

 

I am simply struggling to find the emotiva model l, to which you refer,  that costs roughly $30 brand new.. (1/15th the cost which you have indicated). Let alone a pre amp is still needed, so an integrated amp at that, for $30. Please point me to this miracle price point piece my friend...  ...It's too good to be true and must be audio bliss!  .   .    .  The guy who can't get his mind off of specs and measurement so cannot do simple multiplication and division? Hmm. It seems clear that you prefer audio reproduction over listening experience. 

 

This comment by you was unnecessary. You went from appropriate discussion to being vindictive;

"I certainly would feel an amp that hummed would be inferior to one that didn't.Doesn't take specs to figure that out. ".

 

Come on now...

 

You start off claiming that you think it may be something else in the chain causing the hum, and not the emotivas, which statistical measurements, which you love, have shown to be noisy circuits. You then change to perhaps agreeing at some point that maybe it is was the amps after all then jumping to the statement I just quoted above, honing in on that I eliminated the hum by purchasing a $7500 amp. Quit clowning.

. (Note the poster above this post had the same experience with his emo amp into his cornwalls. Wait, must be his poorly shielded and poor capacitance RCA cable!).. 

 

Note the multiple users in this thread alone which have found a desired result in tubes with cornwalls. Not to mention the abundancy of them on this forum

 

 

[ATLAudio]

Tube amps do in fact change sound characteristics, especially push-pull designs, and when allowed to go into distortion. Actually, all amps have differing ways of handling distortion, NAD has soft clipping on solid state amps which I've found has a similar effect as a tube amp. This combination of push-pull and distortion handling creates a sound which I've found to be quite similar to an electrostatic speaker with a reflective front wall. If you have heard this before, and like this, go for it, but I've found that it introduces some coloration effects with a lot of material that I find objectionable. 

 

Play Leonard Cohen's Nevermind. His mic is a bit hot, and the sound of smacking between lyrics is quite noticeable. With controlled directivity of horn speakers and neutral solid state amplification, all sonic material is situated on the front stage. With electrostatics, or overly colored tube reverb that smacking sounds like it's in surround sound all around, and right next to you. This immersion effect is intriguing, maybe even pleasing at first, but for me, quickly gets annoying. I also quickly realize that it's anything but accurate. Other sounds, especially horns, and synthesized material sound too different for me to appreciate their reproduction. However, string instruments benefit the most, especially acoustic strings, but even here I get into a circular argument with myself that if the artist wanted this coloration, wouldn't they have engineered the recording to provide it as such?

 

That said, I wouldn't mind finding a tube power amp, say under $1000, closer to $500 to play around with. It's the exotically priced stuff I call BS on, and I do it with solid state as well. I'll also always call BS on the industry's "slapping a tube on it" approach to any and all audio gear, and charging a premium. Finally, I've also heard of using pro-gear pieces to introduce the specific flavor of reverb and tube characteristics to your speakers, but I don't know what specific gear was used, or how to properly use it.

[ATLAudio]

NP

[jkull]

1 hour ago, ATLAudio said:

Tube amps do in fact change sound characteristics, especially push-pull designs, and when allowed to go into distortion. Actually, all amps have differing ways of handling distortion, NAD has soft clipping on solid state amps which I've found has a similar effect as a tube amp. This combination of push-pull and distortion handling creates a sound which I've found to be quite similar to an electrostatic speaker with a reflective front wall. If you have heard this before, and like this, go for it, but I've found that it introduces some coloration effects with a lot of material that I find objectionable. 

 

Play Leonard Cohen's Nevermind. His mic is a bit hot, and the sound of smacking between lyrics is quite noticeable. With controlled directivity of horn speakers and neutral solid state amplification, all sonic material is situated on the front stage. With electrostatics, or overly colored tube reverb that smacking sounds like it's in surround sound all around, and right next to you. This immersion effect is intriguing, maybe even pleasing at first, but for me, quickly gets annoying. I also quickly realize that it's anything but accurate. Other sounds, especially horns, and synthesized material sound too different for me to appreciate their reproduction. However, string instruments benefit the most, especially acoustic strings, but even here I get into a circular argument with myself that if the artist wanted this coloration, wouldn't they have engineered the recording to provide it as such?

 

That said, I wouldn't mind finding a tube power amp, say under $1000, closer to $500 to play around with. It's the exotically priced stuff I call BS on, and I do it with solid state as well. I'll also always call BS on the industry's "slapping a tube on it" approach to any and all audio gear, and charging a premium. Finally, I've also heard of using pro-gear pieces to introduce the specific flavor of reverb and tube characteristics to your speakers, but I don't know what specific gear was used, or how to properly use it.

I thought you were going to come back at me again and this thread was going to get unnecessarily argumentative. But you didn't, so thank you, and I issue my respect for that.

 

i agree that acoustical strings are found to more than not, with tubes, sound rather beautiful. I find the sound of horns and acoustics quite nice with the LM219ia thus far.

 

I personally think some of the most outrageous gear are the humongous SS mono's out there calling for 15-20k by the likes of Pass or Krell etc.. I'm sorry but I feel like the production of many lower sensitivity speakers propels the production of larger and larger SS amps to be able to drive them, which, even though watts or fairly cheap, the companies don't always play it that way. Thus you have the 700lb Master Reference amp from krell that cost $120,000.  Yes that is the far extreme of things but how unnecessary!

[ATLAudio]

1 hour ago, jkull said:

I thought you were going to come back at me again and this thread was going to get unnecessarily argumentative. But you didn't, so thank you, and I issue my respect for that.

 

i agree that acoustical strings are found to more than not, with tubes, sound rather beautiful. I find the sound of horns and acoustics quite nice with the LM219ia thus far.

 

I personally think some of the most outrageous gear are the humongous SS mono's out there calling for 15-20k by the likes of Pass or Krell etc.. I'm sorry but I feel like the production of many lower sensitivity speakers propels the production of larger and larger SS amps to be able to drive them, which, even though watts or fairly cheap, the companies don't always play it that way. Thus you have the 700lb Master Reference amp from krell that cost $120,000.  Yes that is the far extreme of things but how unnecessary!

 

The large mono-block amps seem to have a home, however, with less sensitive low ohm speakers. What makes my ears bleed is the Best Buy Magnolia who matches them with high-end B&W. However, they sound great with 1st order designs, like Vandersteen or Thiel. 

[jkull]

33 minutes ago, ATLAudio said:

The large mono-block amps seem to have a home, however, with less sensitive low ohm speakers. What makes my ears bleed is the Best Buy Magnolia who matches them with high-end B&W. However, they sound great with 1st order designs, like Vandersteen or Thiel. 

They do, but the costs of some of these are sort of funny. And I agree with you about magnolia.  B&W's are risky speakers so I've learned. Mine bled my ears with my emotiva's. I'd make it through one side of a record and had enough. 

[ATLAudio]

37 minutes ago, jkull said:

They do, but the costs of some of these are sort of funny. And I agree with you about magnolia.  B&W's are risky speakers so I've learned. Mine bled my ears with my emotiva's. I'd make it through one side of a record and had enough. 

 

I don't think the tweeter is anything special on even the high-end BWs. I've never heard a Klipsch speaker that bright. But they market their design as "cutting edge" and such. I've heard that to replace the tweeter motor it's only like 75$. Having to replace a tweeter motor on a high-end Vandersteen involves Richard Vandersteen actually building it. It will cost more than 75$ if out of warranty or abused.