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Cornwalls with tubes


jkull

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12 hours ago, ATLAudio said:

I usually review independent measurements of amplifiers prior to purchase, so yeah.

 

As you continue in my following sentence, I’m referring to a comparison of the output signal from the amp compared output signal from the source. The goal should be for it be accurate, but amplified. You can’t hear this, I’m not referring to whats heard out of the speakers

You can't tell how an amp sounds based on it's measurements.

 

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This sounds like something rooted in a naturalistic fallacy. If this were the case then there would be no science in sound above and below the threshold of human hearing. We have measurement devices which are far more sophisticated and sensitive than human ears. As a matter of fact; we can change a litany of sonic effects that can’t be detected in blind ABX comparisons. But holding all that aside, you only helped prove my point and expand on my question I’ve asked; how can an amp designer make a single coloration which survives speaker selection, speaker placement, room selection, and room condition. Now toss in 12 billion ears on this planet.

You seem to be missing my point.  Yes, there are instruments more sensitive than the human ear just like there are optical instruments more sensitive than the human eye. The point is that the intended use of a sound system is not for electronic instruments to sense or measure, the purpose is for the human ear to enjoy.

 

You also seem to not be acknowledging that solid-state amplifiers also color the sound.  Every single component in the system colors the sound from the source, amplifier(s), speakers, room, and finally the human hears.

 

12 hours ago, ATLAudio said:

This is nonsensical. You can’t use “accurate” without changing its definition. If we can’t rely on a word accuracy to mean what it means, toss the whole dictionary in the garbage. If you like colorations to source material, then you are IN FACT, not seeking accuracy. Sorry. There are some tube amps which test just as accurate as solid state, so if there’s still a sonic benefit, what’s the secret sauce?

No, I'm absolutely no changing the definition.  As I stated, tube amplifiers (overall) sound more like live music to me than solid state.  This is with my ears. This is indisputable.  I don't know why you think you know what I am hearing better than I do.

 

12 hours ago, ATLAudio said:

Accuracy is an either it’s there or it’s not. If the artist wanted you to hear some colorations which you insist are apparent with your tube amp present, he could have added them, and I’d hear them in my SS; that’s accuracy. Again, what secret sauce in tube amps which does this universally, and with consistency past speaker selection, speaker placement, room selection, and room condition.

So you are saying that there are no accurate systems?  Because no system is 100% accurate, they all have some colorations.  Yes, my tube amp has colorations.  Your solid-state amp does too.

 

I do have one question for you, have you ever heard a tube amplifier?

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Had my 76 Corns hooked up to an hot-rodded EICO HF-81, a museum piece Scott with all Telefunken tubes and my older Nakamichi 100W/channel AV amp.  Not hard at all to say they sounded better with either of the tube amps than the Nak.   That Nak is from before Nak went to pieces with their "lifestyle" junk.

 

If I had the corns back I'd run the EICO.  It would make about 14 watts/channel but I never needed to go over half-way on the volume dial.  The Corns were sitting just inside a pair of 1960 Khorns on a 14 ft wall.  Hardly optimal.  I also have LS but in another room.

 

for your stated music preferences I'd get the Corns and a decent tube amp, something that will make 20-25 watts/channel.  I wouldn't worry much about the volume, this setup will permanently damage your hearing before you need more power.  With Klipsch it really is all about the first watt.  I had a decent Fluke meter wired in that EICO/Corns deal.  most of the time it was running a fraction of a watt.  Pretty freaking loud at 1 Watt.

 

I still can't find my Klipsch BullSchirt.  one of the first posts in this thread had a pic of the BullSchitt button, it works too.  

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Ive read over the past few comments. I can say in my experience thus far, the tube driven setups I have heard have been more pleasing to the ears.

 

Here are two videos. Same speakers, and room. One room has the manufacturers latest mono tube amps and the other room has their SS amps. They did this to get a tube vs SS opinion. You can clearly hear the difference through even watching these videos. Listen to the bass. Far more realistic when being played arco OR pizzicato style, and I would know as I play an upright bass myself.

 

The displayer of these extremely high end products, states that the vote has been 50/50 thus far in his sampling, and then makes a joke stating that what he has learned is that 50% of the population is deaf lol. If you can't hear the very noticeable difference in these two videos, you must have sub par hearing or an innacurate idea of what these instruments sound like.

It is clear that the displayer and listener both prefer the tube room. 

 

Try to take notice of how you hear the 'wood', and the proper resonance coming from the body of the upright bass. The SS room is not producing this as well.  Its quite noticeable.

 

And no this is not an end to all point being proven. This is one set of videos of one brand of amps. However, they are high end and very precise demonstrations of valve and SS amplification, and I know which one i think sounds better very early in. Take a listen!

 

 

 

 

 

 

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21 minutes ago, wdecho said:

When it comes to vocals tubes rule. As a friend of mine said after listening to my best SS amp and then my 45 amp using Linda Ronstadt with Nelson Riddle orchestra, "it is as though a blanket was lifted from the vocals. The argument in this thread will never be settled with words. It will take listening with music. With some material I would lean towards a good SS amp over a tube but if I had to choose only one amp and get rid of my other 20 amps it would be a tube amp. This is with my choice of music in my retirement years with my modified LaScalas. I have built 5 of the Firstwatt offerings and presently still have 3 of them besides many others but they are considered my best SS amps. I also have many tube amps both PP and SE among them are a SE 45 amp and a SE 300B. I would say the majority of all my amps will produce very acceptable sound. I do not think any of the better offerings of amps would be bad choice with our speakers. It comes down to what you are expecting in an amp. Most differences I hear in my better amps is subtle differences. 

If a blanket is lifted from the vocals, it is also lifted from the other tracks on the recording as well, as Im sure you know. Some people focus on vocals in pieces that are vocal driven and thus notice this more. Part of that blanket lift is a boost and density in the mids. My 500w SS mono block amps through my B&W towers that I just sold, had horrible mids. Part of why I'm undergoing this transformation in my setup. I listen to a lot of heavy music as stated above, and nothing is more important than mids in heavy guitar driven music. Possibly in that genre more than any other. People who play in or have played in bands will understand this likely. Often time it is a boost in the mids that is needed to cut through the mix, not necessarily a boost in volume...Mids are what is most important to me. I had an over abundance of bass, and enough treble, but mids that did not cut through properly, in MY room with MY equipment, at least.. 

 

This also applies to the videos above.. Notice the presence of the upright bass especially while being bowed. 

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1 hour ago, wdecho said:

The 45 tube is the cleanest,clearest, in the room with you singer, active device I have ever heard. With our speakers it's minimal power is adequate enough for most. This is the difference that stands out to me from other amps. 

The 845?

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4 hours ago, jkull said:

The 845?

Different tubes.

 

The 45 tube produces ~1.5 watts in a SET configuration.

 

The 845 produces ~18 watts in a SET configuration. 

 

In my opinion, a properly designed SET 845 amp is pure bliss on the La Scala. I  have also heard La Scalas with a variety of transistor amps and, to my ears, there is no contest.The SET 845 based amps sounded much better and met my primary criteria of beckoning me to listen to more music. 

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1 hour ago, wdecho said:

I also have heard of others that praise a 845 amp. I know it is not a cheap build dealing with such high voltages. My 45 amp is not what I call a cheap build if one uses quality OPT's and components. The tubes are still a bargain on Ebay being that there was so many made. If one is diligent and patient you can find them for $35 or less. I bought 6 and all sound alike in my amp. Some were bought for $20. Plenty of power in my room which is not a small room. 

I have not had the pleasure of living with a SET 45 amp - yet. ;)

 

Folks who have lived with both say that there are many similarities in the presentations of the 45 and 845, the 845 just has more power. Will have to get a good 45 based SET amp and see for myself. Definitely on my audio "must do" list.

 

In the meantime, I can't wait to get home, warm up the system, settle in and listen to a lot of wonderful music. :)

 

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That looks really nice William!  And, other builders should take note of your excellent layout which keeps the magnetic field generated by the chokes and power xfmr as far away as possible from the 6SN7 drivers.  That goes a long way in terms of keeping an amp hum-free.  By the way, what did you use to get the nice gloss on the chassis?

 

Maynard

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Getting the thread back on topic...

I was going to pickup a pair 3 hours north in NY but happened to come across a pair only a little over an hour away that are in excellent shape. Cornwall 1's. Will be picking these up tomorrow. So happens to be driving his with a Line Magnetic 845 amp as well!

 

a photo of them..

 

 

IMG_8613.PNG

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On November 20, 2016 at 6:32 PM, wdecho said:

I am aware of the transmitting 845 tube but have never heard one used as an amplifier tube. I am talking about the 45 tube that was used abundantly for radio use years ago. 

 

http://vinylsavor.blogspot.com/2011/09/tube-of-month-45.html

 

Tons of info using google. I do have a few other SE tube amps that sound real close one being Maynard's "Little Sweetie."

 

My 45 tube amp is built around this schematic with some changes I would call improvements. 

 

http://www.electra-print.com/45silver.php

 

 

I've been looking at one of those electra-print 45 schematics to build.  But it's the other 45 schematic in his list.  I was attracted to the minimalist design and the fact there are no coupling capacitors.  I'm in the process of slowly gathering parts. I haven't dropped the money on the OPT and PS Xfrmr yet.  I'm still debating whether I really want to spend that kind of money on another amp. It gets expensive - quick. 

 

Kerry

 

http://www.electra-print.com/45drd.php

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11 hours ago, wdecho said:

Component placement is something I learned when building the "Sweetie's."  My first try I had problems with hum and with advice from you I learned about layout. I have since made corrections to my "Sweetie" and it is now nice and quiet. I did nothing to my chassis other than drilling holes. I have used Hammond and Bud Industries cases for my 45, 300B and George Anderson Simple Single Ended. All my other builds are built on Walmart baking pans which work great and are actually more sturdy. 

It wouldn't be too hard to put a wood skirt around the 45 amp...it doesn't have to be thick material...1/4"-1/2".

Been meaning to do that with my 2A3 amp for a long time...I suppose I should shut up now.

I have noticed it's easier to build the wood frame/skirt around the chassis before building the amp. Because once it's built, a guy probably won't bother. 

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On 11/16/2016 at 3:53 PM, jkull said:

Unnecessary as I presume this thread to be, I wanted to get feedback for my own confirmation and assurance. I am in the process of converting my 2 channel system to tubes and high efficiency speakers. Thus I decided on large klipsch speakers for many obvious reasons. I started with the idea of cornwalls, with some advising for la scalas. A nice pair of la scalas became available locally but I opted in the end to go for cornwalls for the 15" bass driver and lower frequency capabilities. This is because I happen to also listen to a LOT of heavy music as well.. Crustpunk, sludge, speed/thrash metal, power violence, hardcore, etc. Thus having a 15" cone I feel will suite me better and possibly alleviate my need for a sub any longer. I am planning to pick up these 60's earlier version vertical cornwalls (100bd)  tomorrow... Anyhow.

 

Great thread lots of good stuff I am in the process as you are I bought a pair of Klipsch Forte's earlier this year I wanted to get back into tubes and because my other speakers are really hard to drive I need different speakers. I have a Pass Labs X150.5 pushing them and my one problem my room is small and you really have to get the volume up for them to do their thing and it drives you out of the room. The one nice thing now with the Forte's I can listen at a normal level. I have know doubt with the right tube amp they will sound great But with my Dynaco ST70 with the Joe Curcio full mod it just doesn't cut it the bass it loose not tight at all not like the Pass and I rolled many different tube in it and nothing really makes a difference. I guess it's all about finding the right pieces of the puzzle that works for you and part of the fun this hobby 

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38 minutes ago, wdecho said:

You may want to try a good tube pre with that Pass X150.5. What kind of pre are you now using?

I build the Direct Coupled B-1 from here http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/pass-labs/176723-mezmerize-dcb1-building-thread.html 

I am working on a tube pre now hope to have is done soon kinda my take on the discontinued Hagerman Clarinet it's something I started years ago then abandoned it to go different direction.

 

Dave

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3 hours ago, jkull said:

Getting the thread back on topic...

I was going to pickup a pair 3 hours north in NY but happened to come across a pair only a little over an hour away that are in excellent shape. Cornwall 1's. Will be picking these up tomorrow. So happens to be driving his with a Line Magnetic 845 amp as well!

 

a photo of them..

 

 

IMG_8613.PNG

Sweet looking system.

 

Please post your thoughts regarding the Line Magnetic amp driving the Cornwalls after you audition the speakers. :)

 

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23 hours ago, jkull said:

Getting the thread back on topic...

I was going to pickup a pair 3 hours north in NY but happened to come across a pair only a little over an hour away that are in excellent shape. Cornwall 1's. Will be picking these up tomorrow. So happens to be driving his with a Line Magnetic 845 amp as well!

 

a photo of them..

 

 

IMG_8613.PNG

Those look nice, can you post a picture of the back showing the serial numbers etc. They look almost like my pair.

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