DaMuffinMan Posted November 22, 2016 Share Posted November 22, 2016 So I am trying to decide whether to build a PP or SET Tube amp. I found the following information and wanted to get some feedback from the experienced here. What are your experiences? Are the following statements true? ADVANTAGES OF SE OPERATION . Less signal deterioration because of fewer signal path components Better detail and coherency, especially at low volumes . More open and airy sound DISADVANTAGES OF SE OPERATION Poor efficiency, with low power and high heat production Almost no rejection of power supply hum and noise, which necessitates more power supply filtering No cancellation of second order harmonic distortion (some do not consider this a disadvantage) (Usually) shorter power tube life Has speaker compatibility issues, is less tolerant of wide impedance curves and complex crossover networks Poor damping factor ADVANTAGES OF PP OPERATION More power (Usually) more authoritative and powerful sounding Better bass performance Fewer speaker compatibility issues Lower distortion DISADVANTAGES OF PP OPERATION Homogenized, uninteresting sound More signal deterioration due to greater signal path complexity More power supply intermodulations between amplifier stages, and other power supply anomalies Poor low level detail and dynamics Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TubeHiFiNut Posted November 22, 2016 Share Posted November 22, 2016 SE amps must, in my opinion, be considered as one-half of the amp/speaker system. Take the time to match a properly designed and implemented SET or SEP with a synergistically matched speaker and, again in my opinion, that amp/speaker system can get you closer to the soul and the emotion of the music. Is SE a universal solution? No. I use low power PP tube amps when the Quad ESL-57 take center stage and higher power PP tube amps for the Martin-Logan CLS. But sitting down to listen to the combination of the 300B SET amps on the Lowther PM2a/Medallion or the 845 SET amps on the La Scala or JBL 4430 is a wonderful experience and really connects me with the music. So.....What speakers are you planning to match up to your SE amps? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
derrickdj1 Posted November 22, 2016 Share Posted November 22, 2016 I use a PP tube amp which is very detail, plenty of power to spare with excellent bass. I agree with the above statement that the amp should be matched to your listening habits and speakers. A great sound system can be put together with either type amp. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Schu Posted November 22, 2016 Share Posted November 22, 2016 What's more important to you... SIngle Ended. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DaMuffinMan Posted November 22, 2016 Author Share Posted November 22, 2016 35 minutes ago, TubeHiFiNut said: So.....What speakers are you planning to match up to your SE amps? The ones in my signature, 1983 Cornwall 1.5 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lemon string Posted November 22, 2016 Share Posted November 22, 2016 I have cornwalls like the OP and run them with a SE amp. I have had the amp for three years now and still love it. It has a very musical presentation with my speakers and room. Most visitors always comment that my system has" a very natural sound", "The instruments sound as they should". I feel like the combination has given my set up the best sound stage, the strongest phantom center and most holographic rendering of music out of any that I have tried with my cornwalls. For me I looked for an amp that had a black background, a dead quite noise floor because the speakers are so efficient. Previous to the SE amp I had a couple SS amps that I could hear between tracks so I knew that was contaminating the music. Perhaps subtle but it was present. The SE amp I own is dead silent even with the gain at 100%. I noticed a difference immediately when I first auditioned the amp in my system. Good luck on making your decision. I'll be interested to hear which direction you choose. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DaMuffinMan Posted November 22, 2016 Author Share Posted November 22, 2016 26 minutes ago, Schu said: What's more important to you... SIngle Ended. Well I kind of want the best of both. I like the thought of the sound of what a SET does. And I like the higher wattage of a PP. What would an amp that would be capable of this be like? Maybe like this? "If we apply SET design concepts to PP, using engineering practices aimed at achieving the best sound rather than the best specs on paper, the results can be astonishingly good". Are such amps available? " A PP amplifier using low Rp triode power tubes such as the 2A3 or 300B can get by with little or no NFB. For one, the triodes are an advantage in themselves, in both linearity and output impedance. Two, the front end voltage amplifer and phase inverter stages can be designed with much lower gain, if no NFB is present to reduce the available gain. Lower gain means lower distortion and lower output Z, so NFB is not necessary to attain these desirable properties. You end up with a much more linear amplifier, that has a simpler circuit with lower parts count and therefore less signal deterioration, and more air, breath, and vibrancy. See how much better everything gets when you set out to design it right from the beginning, instead of trying to fix it with NFB"? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DaMuffinMan Posted November 22, 2016 Author Share Posted November 22, 2016 21 minutes ago, Lemon string said: I have cornwalls like the OP and run them with a SE amp. What amp are you using? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lemon string Posted November 22, 2016 Share Posted November 22, 2016 Audion Sterling EL34 on my cornwalls. Audion Sterling KT88 20th anniv edition on Fortes 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tube fanatic Posted November 22, 2016 Share Posted November 22, 2016 The big question is whether you want to do a total diy project, or build from a kit? Without prior experience, it would be best to go with a nice, simple, single ended project using an IDHT (DHTs are more difficult to deal with). And, even that type of amp will expose you to voltages which can kill you. Do you have experience working with such voltages? As to some of the concerns you posted above: 9 hours ago, DaMuffinMan said: So I am trying to decide whether to build a PP or SET Tube amp. I found the following information and wanted to get some feedback from the experienced here. What are your experiences? Are the following statements true? ADVANTAGES OF SE OPERATION . Less signal deterioration because of fewer signal path components-- YES Better detail and coherency, especially at low volumes- USUALLY More open and airy sound- USUALLY DISADVANTAGES OF SE OPERATION Poor efficiency, with low power and high heat production- LOW POWER, YES. HIGH HEAT DEPENDS ON THE DESIGN/TUBE Almost no rejection of power supply hum and noise, which necessitates more power supply filtering- NOT AN ISSUE AT ALL No cancellation of second order harmonic distortion (some do not consider this a disadvantage) (Usually) shorter power tube life- NONSENSE. Has speaker compatibility issues, is less tolerant of wide impedance curves and complex crossover networks- SETS ARE TYPICALLY IMMUNE TO IMPEDANCE VARIATIONS, AND SEPS WITH NFB CAN COME CLOSE. Poor damping factor- TRUE, BUT GENERALLY NOT AN ISSUE WITH MOST KLIPSCH SPEAKERS ADVANTAGES OF PP OPERATION More power (Usually) more authoritative and powerful sounding- YES Better bass performance- NOT NECESSARILY Fewer speaker compatibility issues- ONLY IF NFB IS EMPLOYED TO LOWER OUTPUT IMPEDANCE Lower distortion- YES, BUT THERE ARE ISSUES WITH CROSSOVER DISTORTION IN THE OUTPUT XFMRS. BALANCE IN THE PHASE INVERTER AND OUTPUT STAGE IS CRITICAL TO ENSURE LOW DISTORTION. DISADVANTAGES OF PP OPERATION Homogenized, uninteresting sound- TYPICALLY (IN MY OPINION) More signal deterioration due to greater signal path complexity- NOT NECESSARILY More power supply intermodulations between amplifier stages, and other power supply anomalies- DEPENDS ON THE DESIGN Poor low level detail and dynamics- OFTEN (IN MY OPINION) Maynard 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mkane Posted November 22, 2016 Share Posted November 22, 2016 Sitting here reading this thread makes me think twice about a scratch build dealing with voltage than can do harm. My limited experience is building from kits where the designer holds my hand the whole way. Still. it takes just one mistake. Does wearing rubber soled shoes and keeping one hand in your pocket may a person immune to lethal voltage? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TubeHiFiNut Posted November 22, 2016 Share Posted November 22, 2016 10 hours ago, DaMuffinMan said: The ones in my signature, 1983 Cornwall 1.5 Thank you. What genre(s) of music do you prefer and how loud do you listen? I have an Almarro A205a SEP amp running EL-84 tubes, ~4 watts/channel. Works beautifully on my La Scalas for most music. The ~18 watts/channel CazTech SE-845 SET amps take things to a whole new level. If you are considering DIY, don't even think about tackling a build with 845 tubes. The B+ on these amps is 1250 volts and will kill you if you are not careful. Not for any but the most experienced builders. I'm not a DIY kind of person - no time and it doesn't appeal to me at this stage of my life. That doesn't mean that I don't understand the concepts of DIY. You may want to start with a SEP amp using EL-84s. Simple circuit and very musically involving. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
avguytx Posted November 22, 2016 Share Posted November 22, 2016 What about just buying either/or/both pre-made and see what you like for your listening purposes. Then, if you're still gung-ho on building one, you can sell the others off and build something even better. Trying to decide which version of cheese dip you like best based on everyone else's opinions before you've even tasted it with your own chips is a little tough. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DaMuffinMan Posted November 22, 2016 Author Share Posted November 22, 2016 6 hours ago, wdecho said: I have one PP tube amp that sounds more like a SET than some of my SET's, that is pentodes ran in triode mode. My PP has the some of the traits of a SET but also has traits of SS amp such as quickness and better bass. My 2 DHT amps have a sound and soundstage like none of my other amps at the sacrifice of the quick bass of my PP. It does come down to personal preference. I can enjoy all my better amps and all sound different in subtle ways. "I have one PP tube amp that sounds more like a SET than some of my SET's," .......What amp is this one? My 2 DHT amps have a sound and soundstage like none of my other amps" What are these 2 amps? at the sacrifice of the quick bass of my PP. Not sure what you mean by this, please explain. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DaMuffinMan Posted November 22, 2016 Author Share Posted November 22, 2016 4 hours ago, tube fanatic said: The big question is whether you want to do a total diy project, or build from a kit? I want to do a total DIY project where I research and source the parts on my own. Part of the reason for asking all of these questions. Without prior experience, it would be best to go with a nice, simple, single ended project .....I am only going to build one for now, so I want to build it right, I will be taking my time and researching. using an IDHT (DHTs are more difficult to deal with). I looked and can't find/figure what IDHT & DHT stand for. Can you explain to me please? And, even that type of amp will expose you to voltages which can kill you. So if I am going to die (which I don't plan on any time soon,) I'm going to build the kind of amp I want. Do you have experience working with such voltages? No, but I will search out someone in my area that I can learn from. Is there a locator place on here for people that live in your area? As to some of the concerns you posted above: Not sure what you are saying? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DaMuffinMan Posted November 22, 2016 Author Share Posted November 22, 2016 3 hours ago, TubeHiFiNut said: Thank you. What genre(s) of music do you prefer and how loud do you listen? I listen to Pink Floyd, Robin Trower, Black Sabbath, and Classical, orchestra etc. I have an SS amp in my signature that I Haven.t turned past 6 yet. Very Loud. I want this tube amp build to be able to give me some accurate music, and be able to feel it also. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DaMuffinMan Posted November 22, 2016 Author Share Posted November 22, 2016 1 hour ago, avguytx said: What about just buying either/or/both pre-made and see what you like for your listening purposes. Then, if you're still gung-ho on building one, you can sell the others off and build something even better. That takes all the fun out of it. Trying to decide which version of cheese dip you like best based on everyone else's opinions before you've even tasted it with your own chips is a little tough. I make my own Queso w beef cheese dip! I plan on listening to other units once I find some in my area. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DaMuffinMan Posted November 22, 2016 Author Share Posted November 22, 2016 29 minutes ago, wdecho said: #3 A PP tube amp as a rule is going to have better bass than a SET. A SET generally has better vocals. Is there a way to do a hybrid between the two? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Schu Posted November 22, 2016 Share Posted November 22, 2016 Better bass should not be confused with MORE bass... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DaMuffinMan Posted November 22, 2016 Author Share Posted November 22, 2016 Quick question on Monoblocks, What are the benefits of using and not using them? If I remember correctly wdecho you opted to use only one transformer in your build of the Poddwatts? Did you accomplish what you set out to do with this change? Has anyone else done this with success. Oh an a note to everyone, I'm not looking to spend 3-5 k on an amp. Probably between $500.00 to $700.00 for the parts and build it myself. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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