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Is bi-wiring worth it?


Marios

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17 minutes ago, Schu said:

That article above specifically states the same model amplifier... to me that does sound foolish.

 

People do this all time in vertical bi-amp situations basically creating a dual mono block scenario, is that foolish?

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"Vertical bi-amping is valued because the majority of the power supply of one amp is dedicated to powering just the woofer. This is because tweeters take next to no power. It’s probably a good compromise when two amps are used and the way I would recommend if you’re using identical amplifiers.

 

Horizontal bi-amping is valuable when you’re using different amplifiers to optimize sound quality–brutes on the woofer, sweet and small on the top end.

 

So we could make a rule of thumb that suggests vertical is best for identical amplifier models, horizontal is best for optimizing the synergy of different amps."

 

http://www.psaudio.com/pauls-posts/bi-amping-horizontal-or-vertical/

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4 hours ago, jjptkd said:
7 hours ago, derrickdj1 said:

Passive bi-amping is also know as fool's bi-amping for a reason.

 

Calling people names does not make your point any more legitimate.

 

I've read a lot of Derrick's posts.  He is not a name caller.

 

His use of the phrase "fool's bi-amping" is not in the least a personal attack on an individual.  It is a common phrase used by many, although I would certainly admit it's not the most refined of terms I've ever heard.  :rolleyes:

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7 minutes ago, wvu80 said:

 

I've read a lot of Derrick's posts.  He is not a name caller.

 

His use of the phrase "fool's bi-amping" is not in the least a personal attack on an individual.  It is a common phrase used by many, although I would certainly admit it's not the most refined of terms I've ever heard.  :rolleyes:

 

Yes, I know, I was merely pointing out the implication, no offense taken by me at all.

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After all these years, if passive Bi-amping stood up to science testing, it would have been proven one way or the other.  Looking at this from an evidence base approach, there is none.  Just occasional reports of Oh, it worked in my system.  I am not knocking it.  I've tried horizontal and vertical passive bi-amping.  I gave up on it.  It looks cool and so does bi-wiring but, there is no valid evidence pointing to either having more than a placebo effect.

 

My recommendation is for each person to try it and see if they like it.  It certainly does no harm.

 

If either passive bi-amping or bi-wiring worked there would be published data of lower distortion or some other parameter.  The old trust your is not the science we need to put this to rest.

 

 

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7 minutes ago, derrickdj1 said:

After all these years, if passive Bi-amping stood up to science testing, it would have been proven one way or the other.  Looking at this from an evidence base approach, there is none there.  Just occasional reports of Oh, it worked in my system.  I am not knocking it.  I've tried horizontal and vertical passive bi-amping.  I gave up on it.  It looks cool and so does bi-wiring but, there is no valid evidence pointing to either having more than a placebo effect.

 

My recommendation is for each person to try it and see if they like it.  It certainly does no harm.

 

So just to be clear you're stating that bi-amping adds no additional power to the speakers? This is what the evidence based approach suggests and what you have experienced first hand? Anyone (like myself) who has experienced different results is being fooled by the placebo effect? Is all that correct?

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As I stated everyone is free to do what they like with their system.  I have already posted on how the two amps add an extra 3 db in theory and that the unused signal is dissapated as heat in the passive XO.  Also, setting speaker to small and XO higher can net 5-6 db of extra headroom when using a sub.  I will take the 5-6 db of extra headroom any day of the week.

 

Woofers are not the same as subwoofer drivers and can produce bass much lower and cleaner.  Considering the efficiency of the speaker, the real question is if the extra amplifier is really adding anything useful to the system.  The reason I am bringing subwoofers into the pictures is because it is the bass driver that needs extra power in the system.

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3 minutes ago, derrickdj1 said:

 two amps add an extra 3 db

 

The only thing I stated in my post was that bi-amping will add additional watts. I am in no way encouraging anybody to run out and buy another amplifier or a pair of amplifiers. It is different from just straight bi-wiring because it adds power to the system. Additional power can be useful in certain situations and sometimes it's already available in the form of unused amplifier or Receiver channels. That's all I'm trying to say here.

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I actually think that in the case of my Sunfire experiment there is more than a 3 db increase when bi-amping. Since the woofers in the Chorus II are 4 ohm those 2 channels should be at 400 watts each. I don't know what the ohm rating is for just the horns when separated from the woofers but if they stay at around 8 ohms that would be 200 watts for the each of those channels. So in total, the amp should go from 200 watts per channel to 600 watts per channel?

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23 minutes ago, derrickdj1 said:

As I stated everyone is free to do what they like with their system.  I have already posted on how the two amps add an extra 3 db in theory and that the unused signal is dissapated as heat in the passive XO.  Also, setting speaker to small and XO higher can net 5-6 db of extra headroom when using a sub.  I will take the 5-6 db of extra headroom any day of the week.

 

Woofers are not the same as subwoofer drivers and can produce bass much lower and cleaner.  Considering the efficiency of the speaker, the real question is if the extra amplifier is really adding anything useful to the system.  The reason I am bringing subwoofers into the pictures is because it is the bass driver that needs extra power in the system.

5

"Woofers are not the same as subwoofer drivers and can produce bass much lower and cleaner."

 

YMMV A LOT; I wouldn't take this to heart. There's nothing wrong with using passive bi-amping, and yes there's some science to support it. I'd stop short of going out and buying two huge expensive mono blocks per speaker without a very good return policy. 

 

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It seems to me that, once you have separated the crossover, the impedance to the woofers and tweeter will change.  With the strap in place, or bi-wired without the strap, the two crossovers are wired in parallel.  As the signal frequency lowers, the impedance to the woofer lowers while the impedance to the tweeter increases.  In parallel, the impedance seen by the amplifier will be less than the lowest of the two.  Without the strap, and bi-amped, the woofer amplifier will see a quickly rising impedance as the frequency increases.  The tweeter amp will see a rising impedance as the frequency drops.  As discussed in another thread, can your tube amp handle the high impedance? 

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15 hours ago, mboxler said:

It seems to me that, once you have separated the crossover, the impedance to the woofers and tweeter will change.  With the strap in place, or bi-wired without the strap, the two crossovers are wired in parallel.  As the signal frequency lowers, the impedance to the woofer lowers while the impedance to the tweeter increases.  In parallel, the impedance seen by the amplifier will be less than the lowest of the two.  Without the strap, and bi-amped, the woofer amplifier will see a quickly rising impedance as the frequency increases.  The tweeter amp will see a rising impedance as the frequency drops.  As discussed in another thread, can your tube amp handle the high impedance? 

 

Nope Nope Nope, and more Nope

 

Bi-Wiring a speaker is not a series or parallel wiring circuit. Not in this universe. 

 

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16 hours ago, ATLAudio said:

"Woofers are not the same as subwoofer drivers and can produce bass much lower and cleaner."

 

YMMV A LOT; I wouldn't take this to heart. There's nothing wrong with using passive bi-amping, and yes there's some science to support it. I'd stop short of going out and buying two huge expensive mono blocks per speaker without a very good return policy. 

 

Woofers and subwoofers can be made out of the same material, etc.  By definition, a woofer can operate from 20 Hz to around 4 or 5 kHz.  A subwoofer can operate from 200-300 Hz to 20 Hz or lower.  The subwoofer passband is very small compared to a woofer.  A woofer in general does a poor job with sound at either end of it's frequency band.  These are good questions being asked in the thread.

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On 11/27/2016 at 3:17 PM, derrickdj1 said:

With 4 ohms load there is a higher resistance which relates to the higher current flow.

 

No, a 4 ohm load has less resistance than an 8 ohm load. That's what it means, and the current will increase with a lower resistance.

 

Bruce

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21 hours ago, derrickdj1 said:

After all these years, if passive Bi-amping stood up to science testing, it would have been proven one way or the other. 

That is an astute observation!  In the last several years I have been reading on-line audio forums, I don't think I've seen bi-amp or bi-wiring subjected to any measurable tests, meaning, charts and graphs.

 

I wonder why that is.  We measure every other audio-related detail in the world including room bounce, so why not this?

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16 minutes ago, Marvel said:

 

No, a 4 ohm load has less resistance than an 8 ohm load. That's what it means, and the current will increase with a lower resistance.

 

Bruce

 

Yes, many amplifiers cannot handle a 4 Ohm load either. Be sure to consult the owners manual before even attempting this.

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5 hours ago, ATLAudio said:

Bi-Wiring a speaker is not a series or parallel wiring circuit. Not in this universe. 

Electronics 101: Loads are either in series or in parallel or a combination of the two. There is no other magical way to construct electronic circuits, in this universe:)

ATLAudio, please explain your post.

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On ‎11‎/‎28‎/‎2016 at 10:28 AM, dtr20 said

I still want someone to bi amp using a tube amp for the mid to highs and ss for bass. Then report back

 

Reporting back:  (I've  not read up to date to see if someone else has reported in)

 

I did this.  I had at the time, a dbx BX-1 for the woofers and a McIntosh MC-2102 for the K402.  Later, I used a Viva 300B SET (if I recall the name correctly)

 

Could I tell a difference?  yes

Could the tube amps "keep up" with the dbx?  No way, therefore, the system was limited by the smaller amps (the McIntosh could keep up fine, the 300B and other amps I used were "flea" amps so they set the maximum limit)

Did it sound good? Yes

Did it sound different? Yes

Did it sound "better"? it sounded different and good...don't know about better

Did it sound worse? no, not at all, as long as I was within the range of the weakest link

Did I ultimately sell all the tube amps and just go full solid state? Yes

Do I miss the tube amps? Nope, not really.  Yes, it's cool to see them glowing & all but, it's nice to simply turn on & go.  Besides, the wife was always worrying that the cat or dogs tail would catch fire.

 

Edited to add:  Lest someone think this was in a passive biamp situation, it wasn't.  I was using a full active crossover, properly setup with values provided by Klipsch.

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27 minutes ago, babadono said:

Electronics 101: Loads are either in series or in parallel or a combination of the two. There is no other magical way to construct electronic circuits, in this universe:)

ATLAudio, please explain your post.

 

You're right, change a speaker into a series circuit I should say. Bi-Wiring doesn't CHANGE the structure I should have said. 

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1 hour ago, wvu80 said:

That is an astute observation!  In the last several years I have been reading on-line audio forums, I don't think I've seen bi-amp or bi-wiring subjected to any measurable tests, meaning, charts and graphs.

 

I wonder why that is.  We measure every other audio-related detail in the world including room bounce, so why not this?

 

I found this interesting...

 

https://www.qacoustics.co.uk/blog/2016/06/08/bi-wiring-speakers-exploration-benefits/

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