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K-691 / K-510 2-way Cornscala


geoff.

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Thanks Mark!

 

I see in your October 13, 2015 post that you use a graphic equalizer in an all analogue setup with passive crossovers with a K402/K510?

 

Chris A was very helpful and to the point about the use of active crossovers and EQ too.

 

The gentleman I bought the horns from had mentioned they could use a little processing...

 

I would like to try to "keep it simple" so I may dust off an ADC, Nikko or Technics equalizer I have in the archives. For now...

 

Audio progress quickly turns to a quest for audio perfection the more you wet your beak in it! It won't be long before I start researching an Ashley or some such active crossover. A topic for another thread to be sure!

 

As far as I could gleen from other posts, without EQ I should expect the low end to lose pattern control and reflect off the surrounding walls? The high end suffers from attempts to attenuate the low, and efficiency is lost?

 

My living room is 12 x 20 feet and I usually sit 8 to 10 feet from the speakers which are placed in the corners along the short wall. One of the reasons the 2-way Cornscala was the obvious choice. Imaging that close with my Cornwall 2's is OK, better than one might expect, but not great. 

 

Any guess what sort of adjustments on the sliders will be needed?

 

 

 

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The 510 and 402 are not listenable without EQ.  It's a "spec" for a CD horn.  Many manufacturers make these type of horns and most provide the EQ required (Roy has for Klipsch).  The horn simply does not work properly if it is not provided that big smile from around 500 - 5K.  So get out your EQ. :) 

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Ok. I finally set aside the time to "complete" this project as it stood...

 

I substituted the FIRST Cornscala finished on the right side while I took another two hours to finish the second one.

 

I played my favourite CD's the entire time.

 

In a side by side comparison, both my son and I THOUGHT the Cornscala paled in comparison to my CW2's (modded with K-107-ti tweeters, NEW crossovers AND midrange phenolics from Crites, and fully gasketed drivers), until I realized the CW2's were likely just that much more efficient.

 

I am not sure if there is a burn-in period for titanium drivers, but first impressions were, well... harsh when compared to the left side 

 

I know for a fact the K-107-ti tweeters I put in the CW2's took several hours, if not days, to settle down.

 

Once I finished the second Cornscala and let it play for an hour in concert with it's twin, once again with my favourite tunes, the sublte improvement was evident.

 

I do believe the overall efficiency compared to the CW2's to have dropped ever so slightly, BUT, and this is compared to FINE pair of Cornwall's:

 

Imaging was without question better.

 

There was NO loss of high frequency reproduction. 

 

The attack and decay of all instruments was present. I love a band with a horn section, and it is all that and a bag of chips.

 

The woofer seems to really benefit from a 500hz crossover. It may have been a result too of sealing all drivers and the back panel with insulating tape.

 

Keep in mind this was WITHOUT ANY EQ. And this horn is supposed to require it.

 

Next project - EQ'ing the K510!

 

 

 

 

 

 

IMG_1306.JPG

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Pictured here is the insulating tape that went between the horn and cabinet and along the inside flange where the back panel screws down.

 

The Faital Pro HF200 has only just begun to impress me.

 

The seemless transition from 500hz to the limit of MY hearing puts a smile on my face.

 

...more to follow I am sure.

 

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I am thinking the amount of EQ is contingent upon the driver used in conjunction with the crossover. Passive in this case.

 

The NAD C162 preamp only offers +/- 5 db of boost or cut at 50 and 10 000hz and depending on what I am listening too has been more than adequate so far. Sometimes flat, sometimes full on one, sometimes full on both. BUT just like with all my other Klipsch speakers, tone controls have a very limited impact on the sound.

 

This pair of, what I would have until a month ago called, Cornscala's is not as forward souding as I would have expected. Maybe because the horn is CURRENTLY behind the motorboard. The soundstage is very neutral, neither forward nor subdued. Just "there." 

 

I just spent another hour listening to some Dire Straights CD's from my collection. There is nothing MISSING from the music compared to my beloved CW2's. Like I said before though, the bass seems more present.

 

What a difference a month or so makes.

 

I might very well have titled this thread "K510 / The Fifteens!"

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Nice project. You are light years ahead of most hifi speakers in terms of impact and engagement with the music. 

 

I am running a VARY similar set up, but I started with an Altec Valencia and now only have the woofer and enclosure left: Valencia enclosure, 16" Altec 416-8B, Jamo crossover, K510, Faital Pro 206. If I have one issue, the sound feels a little grainy right now. But that can be a product of many small factors.

 

As mentioned above, I also got my 510 from Gentec, and I also ordered a 402 from American Cinema Equipment. I am not a technician in these matters. Bob has also helped me so much along the way. I am happy with the 510 crossed higher (1200Hz) with the Altec woofer, but I have had it crossed lower over a Belle type horn. I have not EQ'ed the 510. Attached is my last 'in room' response curve.

2017-01-01 ALL.jpg

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WOW! Does the K-510 ever love to be naked!

 

I just pulled the grilles off to take a picture for my files while I was grooving to some SRV.

 

I have never owned a speaker whose character changes SO musc by simply removing the grilles!

 

It is literally as if I pulled the cotton out of my ears.

 

The subtleties lept out of the horns.

 

Now that's the forwardness I LOVE in a speaker.

 

 

 

 

 

 

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26 minutes ago, geoff. said:

WOW! Does the K-510 ever love to be naked!...I just pulled the grilles off to take a picture for my files while I was grooving to some SRV...I have never owned a speaker whose character changes SO much by simply removing the grilles!  It is literally as if I pulled the cotton out of my ears.  The subtleties leapt out of the horns.  Now that's the forwardness I LOVE in a speaker.

 

IMG_1310.JPG

It's interesting that you posted a picture of how you did that: if those grills are still in front of your lower TV in the middle, I believe a least a part of what you're experiencing is reducing reflections from between your stereo loudspeakers.  Imaging should improve quite a bit when you do that.  I'd add more absorption over those grills like a comforter, quilt or fuzzy blanket.  Then listen again for changes in the stereo image clarity and vertical position.  If you also cover your flat screen TV, the stereo imaging should move downwards.  If it does, then that's a dead giveaway that the near-field absorption is working. 

 

If that's the case, then I'd also recommend trying a throw rug (or temporarily use a fuzzy blanket on the floor) in front of each loudspeaker.  If the image moves up or coalesces more, then that's an indicator that the near-field absorption on the floor is effective and doing something that's good.

 

;)

 

Chris

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I think the K510's NEED to be flush mounted AND if covered by grilles, the grilles can only be cloth, no boards anywhere near the horn. I imagine the motorboard should be flush with the cabinet walls too. No boundaries or impediments.

 

The cutout I made in the existing grille likely reflects a ton of acoustic energy back into the horn. That can't be good...

 

In the five days these babies have been in existence, this was the FIRST time I listened to them without grilles. Kids and cats share the same space and nobody wants to see a grown man cry.

 

I was starting to find this experiment moot when compared to my CF-3's or Cornwall 2's.

 

I think the fun has just begun!

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

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  • 2 weeks later...

I took a couple hours during the week to SURFACE mount (flush mounting is beyond my wood-working prowess at this point) the K510's on my "JubWalls". Chris, expect a royalty cheque in the mail for the use of your coinage, and thank you for all of your input here!

 

It probably comes as no surprise to anyone that the improvement in sound quality could be summed up as exponential.

 

Putting the grilles back on as they currently exist is not in the foreseeable future. I will find a better solution later.

 

I have been running these every waking moment since the re-configuration. 

 

This weekend I exchanged first my Cornwall 2's and then my CF-3's for the "JubWall's" and played the same CD to compare the sound reproduction.

 

The Cornwall 2's sound great! These love to be cranked and have the punch at the lower volumes most every other speaker I have owned (including my Forte ii's) lacked. They do not need to be coaxed but beg to be pushed. 

 

The CF-3's sound great! These have a large sweet spot that grabs you by the boo-boo when you are in it and sound fantastic at at ALL volumes. The definition and punch provided by these speakers cannot be touched by lesser drivers PERIOD(.)

 

The JubWall's sound great! These project the widest soundstage of the lot, with a larger sweet spot. The detail emanating from a horn this big is humbling. What the hell was I listening to all these years?!

 

There is a point, however, with these speakers at which any further increase in the volume dial detracts from the experience. It is roughly the same spot my Cornwall 2's go from making me smile to scaring me, club levels... ANYTHING up to that point is sweet as pie and smooth as silk.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

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On 2017-02-11 at 4:50 PM, geoff. said:

I took a couple hours during the week to SURFACE mount (flush mounting is beyond my wood-working prowess at this point) the K510's on my "JubWalls". Chris, expect a royalty cheque in the mail for the use of your coinage, and thank you for all of your input here!

 

It probably comes as no surprise to anyone that the improvement in sound quality could be summed up as exponential.

 

Putting the grilles back on as they currently exist is not in the foreseeable future. I will find a better solution later.

 

I have been running these every waking moment since the re-configuration. 

 

This weekend I exchanged first my Cornwall 2's and then my CF-3's for the "JubWall's" and played the same CD to compare the sound reproduction.

 

The Cornwall 2's sound great! These love to be cranked and have the punch at the lower volumes most every other speaker I have owned (including my Forte ii's) lacked. They do not need to be coaxed but beg to be pushed. 

 

The CF-3's sound great! These have a large sweet spot that grabs you by the boo-boo when you are in it and sound fantastic at at ALL volumes. The definition and punch provided by these speakers cannot be touched by lesser drivers PERIOD(.)

 

The JubWall's sound great! These project the widest soundstage of the lot, with a larger sweet spot. The detail emanating from a horn this big is humbling. What the hell was I listening to all these years?!

 

There is a point, however, with these speakers at which any further increase in the volume dial detracts from the experience. It is roughly the same spot my Cornwall 2's go from making me smile to scaring me, club levels... ANYTHING up to that point is sweet as pie and smooth as silk.

 

 

 

 

 

 

IMG_1321.JPG

 

110dB -- measured on my phone the other day. 

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Hello Steve!

 

Chris A mentioned your project, one of the reasons I was comfortable trying a passive!

 

So at 110 dB you experience the same thing?

 

That is about 9 o'clock on the volume dial on a NAD C162 preamp feeding two bridged C272 amps at 300 watts RMS a side. I can enjoy 10, up to 11 o'clock with my Cornwall 2's - BRIEFLY! But even that is rare now. Chalk it up to age.

 

I have owned speakers that never got there with anything near the lack of compression or distortion ALL of my Klipsch's have.

 

In fact once I got my first pair of Cornwall's I couldn't "enjoy" my CerwinVega CLSC 215's anymore. Sold 'em for a hundred bucks less than the Cornwall's cost. Muddy, but LOW (!) bass and terrible midrange.

 

One other thing about these "JubWalls" (lol), as they stand now, is some vocals sound breathtaking, yet others are "hot." But the bass is impressive. Has me wondering about a dual 15" version of these...

 

I may try Mark1101's suggestion and feed them through a "smiling" equalizer. 

 

But I fear bi-amping and an active crossover is on the horizon.

 

So much for a bigger motor on my fishing boat!

 

 

 

 

IMG_0408.JPG

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  • 1 year later...
On 6/10/2018 at 2:43 AM, AHall said:

Any update in these? Did you stay passive? Ever record with REW? 

 

Uncanny!

 

I stayed passive... but I did buy an Ashly Protea 3.6, as yet unused, ...and a pair of LaScalas...

 

Guess what dropped off the radar? Lol

 

I sold the LaScalas once I found a pair of Industrial LaScala Splits that need some TLC, and a pair of Peavey FH-1 bins to compare once refurbed with K-33-E’s instead of the Black Widows... And that is where I am at right this minute!

 

In amongst all this I sniped a pair of KP-320 (two-way) crossovers to try on the Cornscalas before the K-510’s take a ride on a LaScala bass bin. 

 

The KP-320 looks to me like the precursor of the “Cornscala”, and it crosses at 800hz.

 

Got to get my LSI Splits on line...

 

A pair of Heresy 2’s and a Boston Acoustics XB-6 sub are tiding me over for now, but I am jonesing for my LaScalas!

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

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On 6/11/2018 at 8:30 PM, geoff. said:

 

Uncanny!

 

I stayed passive... but I did buy an Ashly Protea 3.6, as yet unused, ...and a pair of LaScalas...

 

Guess what dropped of the radar? Lol

 

I sold the LaScalas once I found a pair of Industrial LaScala Splits that need some TLC, and a pair of Peavey FH-1 bins to compare once refurbed with K-33-E’s instead of the Black Widows... And that is where I am at right this minute!

 

In amongst all this I sniped a pair of KP-320 (two-way) crossovers to try on the Cornscalas before the K-510’s take a ride on a LaScala bass bin. 

 

The KP-320 looks to me like the precursor of the “Cornscala”, and it crosses at 800hz.

 

Got to get my LSI Splits on line...

 

A pair of Heresy 2’s and a Boston Acoustics XB-6 sub are tiding me over for now, but I am jonesing for my LaScalas!

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

54C9EB45-7F6E-4D58-A170-A1FE6E17D12F.jpeg

 

So you gave up on the 510 cornwall combo?

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