Vocals coming out of Danley DTS-10

[Coytee]

First, let's start at the extreme.

 

Should I be able to hear any vocals out of my DTS-10?

 

They are faint for sure....but you can just discern vocals (typically male of course) coming out.  They're highly distracting.

 

Makes me wonder if I have something setup wrong in the crossover.

 

Signal is source --> Peach-->DX38 for Jubilee's-->parallel outputs into second DX-38 for Danley

 

PEQ      Q    Gain

29Hz     5        -5

54         9        -9

84         2.8     -8

152      1.1      -12

 

Hipass = "Through"

 

Low Pass = 6db, 31Hz, Normal

(I've moved the crossover point around to play with it by ear, this is current setting)

 

Amps are Crown K2's on each Jubilee

K2 is also powering the Danley

 

I mention this because I might simply have the gain on the Danley's amp set too high

 

Thoughts on the crossover numbers?

 

 

[Coytee]

Just turned the Danley back on to double check...

 

Low & behold, you CAN hear 'some' female vocals (watching news)

 

There is a delay issue so it's the echo I'm hearing and it's the echo that is annoying.  It's not timed as bad as it used to be.  I just need to better figure out the delay.

 

Still...  a (very faint) female vocal echoing through a sub woofer?

 

 

[Chris A]

You've got bleedthrough from your speaker cable into the DTS-10.  This is the only way that you'd hear female vocals in the 200-1000 Hz region.  Is your speaker wire shielded? 

 

You can also try twisting the speaker wire - about 1-3 turns per foot (evenly twisted along its full length).

[Chris A]

If the female vocals are heard only when the subwoofer amplifier is on, then check the cable from your preamp to your amplifier--that's the one that will be needing shielding.  If it is an XLR cable and the connections are both XLR connections, then make sure that pins 1 and 3 aren't connected together in the cable or on either end of the cable connection.

[Coytee]

2 hours ago, Chris A said:

You've got bleedthrough from your speaker cable into the DTS-10.  This is the only way that you'd hear female vocals in the 200-1000 Hz region.  Is your speaker wire shielded? 

 

You can also try twisting the speaker wire - about 1-3 turns per foot (evenly twisted along its full length).

 

Well, if you mean twist the wire to the Danley, I can assure you that's not going to happen.  It's now buried in the wall.

 

So, bleedthrough....  you are suggesting that the speaker wire to the Danley is picking up some signal from the mains?

 

If this is the case...  I'm screwed.

[Coytee]

1 hour ago, Chris A said:

If the female vocals are heard only when the subwoofer amplifier is on, then check the cable from your preamp to your amplifier--that's the one that will be needing shielding.  If it is an XLR cable and the connections are both XLR connections, then make sure that pins 1 and 3 aren't connected together in the cable or on either end of the cable connection.

 

This is the case (vocals heard only when sub's amp is on.  This applies to male and female)

 

The cable from preamp to amp makes a pit stop at the Dx38

 

I have single ended on the Peach side and all three pins are connected (if memory serves me) on the DX side

 

From the Dx to the Crown, I have the pins as they're supposed to be (if memory serves me...  I say that because I did once cross wire them)

 

I adjusted the high pass = through.   That got rid of it.  I made it a 12db slope and stopped high in the frequency range (didn't really look... I could just tell the sounds had subsided)

 

Should the high pass be "through"?

 

Did I fix a mistake or, did I create another mistake!! (by taking it out of 'through')

 

Side note, when I adjusted the high pass, I had turned the Jubilee's off (hit the mute on their dedicated DX) and was listening to just the Danley (using its dedicated DX).  Made the changes until it shut up.

 

I certainly may have done something in error but, it does sound a bit better.

 

 

[Coytee]

To be clear, the voices are very faint.  Discernable yes, but they are not full strength output

[CECAA850]

If you hear female voices from the sub then the crossover isn't set right or its not doing its job.  The frequency that's coming through the sub is in an area that tapped horns reproduce in a really ragged manner.  They're only good for a few octaves as far as accurate reproduction goes.  Once above that the frequency response looks really bad. 

[derrickdj1]

The voiced speech of a typical adult male will have a fundamental frequency from 85 to 180 Hz, and that of a typical adult female from 165 to 255 Hz. Thus, the fundamental frequency of most speech falls below the bottom of the "voice frequency" band as defined above.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Voice_frequency

 

I am with Carl, there is a problem in the XO region unless this is one of those musical subs that I am always hearing about.  They not only deliver great bass but, they sing also.

 

[tromprof]

I had a similar issue and it turned out the crossover was mis-wired (by me). It took me a while to figure it out since it was faint and fortunately there was no damage to the woofer, but I wouldn't crank anything until you resolve it.

[Chris A]

1 hour ago, Coytee said:

I adjusted the high pass = through.   That got rid of it.  I made it a 12db slope and stopped high in the frequency range (didn't really look... I could just tell the sounds had subsided)

 

Should the high pass be "through"?

You don't need a high pass on the DTS-10, only a low pass.  I assume that you're crossing somewhere around 40-50 Hz with the low pass filter in the Dx38...?  You've stated that you're using 12 dB/octave, but I'd actually recommend a steeper slope to keep the interference band between the DTS-10 and the Jub bass bins minimized. 

 

How are you setting the delay on the Jubs relative to the DTS-10?  The DTS-10 path length is something like 21-23 feet, while the Jubilee bass bins are something like 8 feet, and the K-402s are like 1.2 feet. 

 

Chris

[Coytee]

I was wondering if the high pass was 'fixing' the problem by shutting it all down!

 

Right now, the crossover point is 31 Hz

 

Extra tidbit if it helps.  I have the left and right channels coming into the DX via the parallel outputs of the primary DX.  I then have output 1 feeding from input 1+2

 

I need to go look but the above PEQ's are on the output 1 (which suggests to me will affect all the input signals)

 

Is there maybe something I should look at on the two input channels since they're summed?

 

Regarding slope, I thought I was using a 6 db slope?  (isn't that what it means in the first post?  (Low Pass = 6db, 31Hz, Normal)

 

I originally had a 12db slope however, it sounded bad.  I don't know how to describe it...but will try.

 

It sounded like the sub was "on or off"  It sounded quite irritating because the sound would be flowing, then suddenly, there was a deep "blurt" where the sub came on (and maybe came on too hard)

 

I changed to a more shallow slope so it would "ramp up" more gradually and it's helped it blend in.

 

Keep in mind, this is all by ear.  I've not done a thing with any measurement.  I have the REW program on my desktop however, my desktop is in another room....  no mic or mixer yet...  so I have some equipment issues before I can test anything.

 

As for delay...  I kept trying to push the Danley forward/backward with regard to delay.  I think I've realized (thanks to something you once said Chris) that it is the Jubilee's that needed to be pushed back)

 

I've dialed them wayyyyyy back (again, by ear) and can't ever find a spot where the echo seems to subside so I've not worried about it for now.

 

 

[bobdog]

On December 11, 2016 at 11:37 AM, Chris A said:

You don't need a high pass on the DTS-10, only a low pass.  I assume that you're crossing somewhere around 40-50 Hz with the low pass filter in the Dx38...?  You've stated that you're using 12 dB/octave, but I'd actually recommend a steeper slope to keep the interference band between the DTS-10 and the Jub bass bins minimized. 

 

How are you setting the delay on the Jubs relative to the DTS-10?  The DTS-10 path length is something like 21-23 feet, while the Jubilee bass bins are something like 8 feet, and the K-402s are like 1.2 feet. 

 

Chris

You do need a high pass with the DTS 10.  10 Hz 24db/Butterworth.  Probably not needed for music but there are movies that can hurt them with the power some of us have available.

 

Also my understanding is that the delay cannot be set just from the path length but must be done through measurements because of the different path lengths with a tapped horn.  Mostly over my head so I may not be correct on this.  I would be interested in a delay figure from measurements as I do not have the knowledge or equipment to do it my self.

[Chris A]

23 minutes ago, bobdog said:

Probably not needed for music but there are movies that can hurt them with the power some of us have available.

If you're running something like a kilowatt amplifier, then--because the woofers are not supported by acoustic suspension like conventional horn-loaded subwoofers--it is possible to unload the woofers in a fashion not unlike that of a ported cabinet.  However, it would have to be sub-12 Hz at extremely high amplitudes to create woofer suspension and magnet-voice coil gap impact problems. 

 

I've found, however, if my SPUD clones (which are tuned to the same Fs of 12 Hz as the DTS-10) are sealed up properly on the access doors and the facing plywood sheets, no harm occurs without using a high pass filter.  If they are not sealed up well, you're going to do some damage to the woofers.  This is first-hand experience.

 

If you're going to use a high pass, you need to make sure that it is upstream of your driving amplifier at the active crossover or the preamp.  Inserting a high pass filter into the circuit formed by the amplifier output terminals and the DTS-10 will result in further increases in group delay and phase lag growth--which is not preferable to the ears.

[jason str]

I prefer a steeper slope (24dB) low pass personally, if you have the option to do so give it a try.

 

My reference is judged by using many types of different subwoofer plate amplifiers but the results should be similar.

[Paducah Home Theater]

There's a few MALE voices that I imagine most anybody could hear.  One of which for example is the man doing the interview of the little girl in Colombiana.  

 

[RoboKlipsch]

I agree with Jason above, a 6db crossover is very shallow.  Test it at the maximum order and see if that helps.  

31 is a really low crossover, but I am no expert in the heritage lines or the Danleys. 

[mark1101]

I had the same issue with my 684 subs.  They had so much energy that it took a 48db slope on the low pass to kill them.  Sounds like you figured it out.

[derrickdj1]

A minimum 18 db Buttterworth, typical 24 db LR and a super steep slope of 48 db would be my starting point set at 50 Hz.  The Khorn, Cornwall and some of the other large Klipsch may roll- off a bit higher in certain room that their specs.

[jwc]

On 12/11/2016 at 1:37 PM, Chris A said:

the Jubilee bass bins are something like 8 feet

55" horn path excluding depth of woofers