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Midrange Titanium diaphragm question


Maximus89
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First, forgive all of my ignorance. I'm totally new to all things music and speakers. 

 

So i've got a pair of Forte I's.  I purchased the Bob Crites Ti diaphragms for the tweeters about 4 days ago.  I noticed right away that i DIDN'T notice a difference compared to when i previously had put the titanium diaphragms in my KLF-10s.  When i did it on the KLF-10's, it was an incredible difference and i loved it and was the reason i wanted to do it for the Forte's.  These Forte's are the first and only pair i've heard with the separate mid and tweeter horns.  I've only listened to KLF-10's, KG 4's, and KG 3.2's previously. 

 

So...after i realized i didn't hear a difference, i put my ear up right into the tweeter horn and i don't know if it's normal but i hear tons of "sssssssssssssss" sound coming from the tweeter(foobar 2000 24/96 or 24/192 FLAC but through a Yamaha RX-V665 in direct mode) and the only real sounds i hear coming out of it are basically cymbals whenever the song had them, and the rest of the time it was just quiet "ssssss" sound. It feels like 98% of the music comes from the midrange.  If that's the case, and i loved hearing the titanium diaphragm in KLF-10's where most of the sound came out of the one horn, will the same effect come with upgrading my midrange to titanium diapghrams? That same sound i heard from the KLF-10's is basically what i'll get with the midrange in my Fortes(bob crites said most people don't like it and usually go back to stock and that discouraged me and then i read some thread about also needing to do a bypass or something for the crossover).  

 

So..

1) Will upgrading the midrange to titanium on Forte's be pretty much the same effect i had previously been impressed with when i did it in the KLF-10s?

 

2) Would i need to upgrade my crossover in order to do the midrange diaphragm upgrade?

 

3) Would i be better off finding another pair of Forte's(or heresys, don't feel like i'd be justified paying so much for just an Academy center and i can't find one in WO) to use as front and rear center? Would that be money better spent than midrange diaphragm(+ crossover upgrade if needed)?

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my personal opinion is that ti mids are spectacular they take the speaker to the next level of performance. Paul Klipsch said that "we live in the midrange". If the caps in your networks are stock then upgrade them. I installed ti mids in H2 two sets of KLF20, Forte, two sets of forte ll. I never changed a crossover. Tweeters in these speakers are all harmonics no fundamentals at all zero none midrange is all fundamental.

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Personally I have never used titanium diaphragms for the midrange on any of the Fort'e / Fort'e II or Chorus II I have ever rebuilt. I do always change the tweeters to Bobs titanium diaphragms.

Have you had a chance to reinstall the old diaphragms back in the tweeters to see if the hissing sound go's away.   Do you have this hissing on both channels or only 1.

As far as the crossovers....you could send them to Bob the rebuild if you are not much for soldering. You could buy new ones from him.

If you really think it is the crossovers...send them to Bob.....But first kind of make sure the hissing isn't coming from source. If only 1 channel swap tweeters from one speaker to the other and see if it follows the tweeter or the issue is indeed with that crossover.

 

G.E.M.

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9 hours ago, Maximus89 said:

  I noticed right away that i DIDN'T notice a difference compared to when i previously had put the titanium diaphragms in my KLF-10s. 

 

Yes, the KLF-10 tweeter covers a much broader range of frequencies so the difference should be more obvious. My impressions of the titanium tweeter in the forte / Chorus models was that at low volumes they sound very near the same as the stock drivers, where they really shine (to me) is in their ability to stay smooth and clear sounding when the volume gets turned way up.

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Thank you gents for the replies.

 

I will try swapping the stock diaphragms back in and check with more songs. It might just be the source.

 

Moray, the titanium just got better and better with time, that's why i was so excited to do it to these forte's but didn't realize i was going to need to do it to the mids. 

 

IF i do get Crites new crossover upgrade(i have no soldering exp), that band pass/roll off won't be a problem if i also install the titanium midrange diaphragms? 

 

If you had to choose, which would you do first?  The Crites new crossover or the midrange titanium diaphragms from klipsch? I don't currently have the funds for both assuming the midrange diapghragms from klipsch are a lot more expensive than the $61 after shipping i pay for the crites titanium's.

 

 

One unrelated question.  Is it normal for these forte grills to sort of get loose?   I'll push the grills in nice and deep and then the next time i come look, one of the corners on both speakers is completely loose to where there is a gap showing.  They keep sliding out.  Way to fix this?

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I really like the Titanium tweeters, especially in the Reference line speakers like my RF-5's and RC-7's. I also like them in the tweeters for the forte and Chorus models. I've tried the titanium mids in the Chorus II's twice and did not like them, thought they were too forward and bright at higher volumes, almost like a mis-match in components. The first time I tried them I did not have the band-pass crossover installed, the second time I did.

 

The forte seems to have a recessed mid range compared to the Chorus so I suspect they would work better in that application but I have never tried it myself. Also, at lower volumes the titanium mids actually sounded good in the Chorus, just not when the volume was turned up. The titanium mids might be just what you need to awaken the forte's if you're unhappy with them in their current state or you may not like them at all, hard to say. If you buy the titanium mids and do not like them you could probably resell them and get a good chunk of your money back, might be worth it to try it out for yourself and see. Those who like the mod seem very pleased with it, others not so much, it would be interesting to hear your thoughts after trying them.

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First time around I left them in for a few hours then removed them. I later found out that I may have had them out of phase as they were simply unbearable, way too loud. The second time around I ordered the band-pass crossover mod from Crites and ensured everything was wired correctly and they sounded a lot better. I believe I made it a few weeks the second time around, maybe a month?

 

I really wanted to like them as I was really happy with the tweeter improvement but at that time I was having a lot of "parties" with numerous people over and lots of alcohol so the volume knob would always get turned way up towards the end of the night. It really was only when the volume was turned well above normal listening levels that the mids became a problem, they seemed to increase in volume at a higher rate than the rest of the speaker making them beam. At the time I was working on damaging my ears at least a few times a week so shouty, screechy mids just wouldn't do so I removed them.

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6 hours ago, Maximus89 said:

 

 

Moray, the titanium just got better and better with time, that's why i was so excited to do it to these forte's but didn't realize i was going to need to do it to the mids. 

 

IF i do get Crites new crossover upgrade(i have no soldering exp), that band pass/roll off won't be a problem if i also install the titanium midrange diaphragms? 

 

If you had to choose, which would you do first?  The Crites new crossover or the midrange titanium diaphragms from klipsch? I don't currently have the funds for both assuming the midrange diapghragms from klipsch are a lot more expensive than the $61 after shipping i pay for the crites titanium's.

 

 

 

The ti diaprhagms do settle in over play time so play them as loud and long as you can to get done sooner.

Bob's networks are the same schematic as the stock the difference is a better large layout and new capacitors. Bob can install new caps into your existing networks. You can have Bob install the klipsch correction network for the ti mids that's your call personally I would not that is just my preference. I understand what the compensation network does  and I won H3 with this very network I simply do not like the way Klipsch has decided to deal with the issue. Given the choice of fresh networks now or ti mids now I would choose the ti mids now but I would also upgrade my networks with new caps as soon as I could afford to. Hope that helps. regards moray james.

 

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So you're saying i should skip waiting for the complete new crossover and just send my current stock crossovers over to Bob to put new caps in?  He did tell me about that option but recommended to me that i should get the new crossovers built and that they were stock but higher quality parts, so i shouldn't really expect much of a sound quality upgrade with the newly rebuilt crossover?

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I would get the ti mid diaphragms now but this is your call and it's good either way. You can add the compensation network any time you like. New caps in your networks will make a big difference and Bob's networks with the larger /better layout will help things even more. A layer of dynamat on the back side of your mid horns and both sides (inside/outside) of your woofer basket will help clean thing up. Lots of other mods that can be do depending upon your interest and ability level. moray james.

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Titanium's have always sounded tinny, harsh and edgy to me regardless of the manufacturer MB Quart comes to mind. Phenolic, poly, or silk diaphrams are far smoother to my ear.  If PWK thought they would sound better he would have installed them to start with.

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  • 1 month later...

Bottom line, upgraded our Forte II's crossovers with Bob Crities solution. The benefits exceed all expectations. Found that the install was a piece of cake, due to the step by step instructions provided by Bob.

At the same time I upgraded the tweeters with Titaniums. Plus upgraded the Mid's with Titanium as well (at the time, Bob directed me to purchase, from Klipsch Parts department).

A sincere thank you to Moray James, (met via Klipsch Forum). I benefited from his knowledge and help. He was avaiable via Forum, text or Phone. Always with help & advice. He was a tremendous benefit to me.

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Although the response curve will vary from the attached forte II graph, the concept remains the same.

A bandpass limits the out put of the squawker driver. Please see detailed description from Bob Crites below:

I can provide a little technical information of using the Klipsch titanium midrange to replace the orignal phenolics. On the trace below, the red is an original K-53 phenolic diaphrgm and the green is the K-53TI titanium midrange diaphragm on the same 700 hz horn. We see slightly higher average output for the titanium than the phenolic. The phenolic output drops like a stone at 6khz where the tweeter takes over. That allows the crossover to be pretty simple since there is no reason to roll off the midrange. But, the titanium diaphragm keeps on going, in fact heading for a peak at around 7.3khz before it drops off. So, if the titanium diaphragm is used in place of the phenolic without a crossover mod, you would have the midrange and tweeter both at full output at the same time around 7khz.

Bob Crites

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