LaScala vs. Heresy

[pzannucci]

23 hours ago, Stainz said:

A folded horn for an 8" LF driver wouldn't need the flow area a 15" would and likely would be a shorter path to match the smaller driver's higher free air resonance. The end result would be less MDF or plywood, just as complex as far as the construction is concerned, so a labor-intensive construction (Co$tly!). Now an 8" BR LF driver  and a horn MF/HF driver and you've got my PRC-made Klipsch product, the RB-81ii, which has a lower bass extension than the Heresy. Go up to a pair of 10" and a single horn and you've got the US-made Klipsch RF-7.

 

 

John

I'm not sure why you are saying the 8" wouldn't need the flow area of a 15".  If it had a smaller mouth and shorter path, the horn resistance gets as such that the low frequency response doesn't exist.

As far as a higher FS, there are a lot of 8" drivers with a lower FS.  The throat area would be much more conducive to lower frequencies though if you used multiples, such as the Jub.

 

I will concur on one thing, the horn would be much more complex if you used an 8" if it was folded multiple times, require a lot more time domain compensation and have a much more restricted frequency range due to high frequencies not being passed.  This is unless you do a straight horn or possible single fold.

[Chris A]

1 hour ago, Stainz said:

It dawned on me while writing the last post That I had never heard the Cornwalls - on paper, they look like Heresies with extended bass - are they that - or more?

 

Look at the differences in the drivers and horns: 

 

The Heresy uses a shorter horn/smaller mouth midrange and a smaller woofer in an acoustic suspension box. 

 

The Cornwall uses a longer/bigger mouth midrange horn and a ported woofer that has over 50% more surface area. 

 

The La Scala has an even larger midrange horn (in fact, the same midrange horn and driver as the Khorn's) and horn-loaded bass, which most people that haven't been exposed to don't know what they're missing.  There's a very large difference in the cleanness of sound and the coupling of that sound to the room's acoustics.

 

1 hour ago, Stainz said:

At 50% more than the La Scala, the K-horns certainly won't need a subwoofer.

 

Well not quite, IME.  Putting horn-loaded subs behind Jub bass bins (which were designed to outperform Khorn bass bins by Roy and PWK) in the corners of the room, I can truthfully say that having two horn-loaded subwoofers in the room's corners adds a great deal to the overall presentation of the music...not just sound effects. 

 

This may be a bit advanced for this thread, but...

 

I recommend consolidating your loudspeaker and setup electronics into one really good multipurpose system that has full horn loading down to below 20 Hz and throughout the entire audible spectrum, then EQ it flat within ± 2 dB or less above 200 Hz, allowing the bass response to rise a bit below 100 Hz down to sub-20 Hz.  Use the largest acoustic space that you have in your home and move all electronics gear and furniture away from the front wall of the room, making sure to clear the area of all gear around the corner and center loudspeakers by at least 6 feet (2 metres) or more.  Then you will begin to hear music recordings in a way that will evoke a completely different gestalt and feeling of immersion and realism...like that you experience when listening to the real thing.  Imagine sitting in a large cathedral to a full pipe organ or full orchestra in its huge acoustic space.  That's the feeling that you get. 

 

That's the PWK experience, and it's like no other...

 

Chris

[pzannucci]

Yes, a set of Paradigm studio monitors I had a long time ago had better bass extension then the K-horns had.  It is all in design and required trade offs.  In this case the Paradigms had better extension but could get no where's as loud as the K-horn nor portray the size of the bass that was there.

[jason str]

3 hours ago, Stainz said:

At 50% more than the La Scala, the K-horns certainly won't need a subwoofer. I've heard them, too... and, if I am going to dream 'big', may as well dream K-horns!

It dawned on me while writing the last post That I had never heard the Cornwalls - on paper, they look like Heresys with extended bass - are they that - or more?

 

The K-horn does not need a subwoofer, nor does the Jubilee but the La Scala has better mid- bass/midrange up to the bass bin's crossover point due to shorter horn path with less folds.

 

Folds in a horn act as a low pass filter so adding a horn loaded subwoofer to the La Scala bass bins gives you the best of both worlds, better sound and lower extension.

 

 

[Chris A]

1 hour ago, jason str said:

...but the La Scala's has better mid-bass due to shorter horn path with less folds

 

For reference only, but to support this statement, note that K-402-MEH configuration has no folds, no time or vertical/horizontal driver misalignment, and no polar coverage issues, especially in the critical mid-bass band:

 

 

Its midbass performance and speech intelligibility exceeds everything that I've heard--including the tri-amped JuBelle that preceded it in its current location.  Its on- and off-axis frequency response is like that of a Khorn or Jubilee:

 

 

Chris

[pauln]

On 12/16/2016 at 0:33 AM, John Albright said:

Heresies are brighter/thinner sounding and lack the definition in bass and lower midrange a La Scala has.  The sound of a La Scala is flatter and much more balanced than the treble biased Heresy.  I had to attenuate the squawker and tweeter of my Heresies 3 dB to make them closer to the balance my La Scalas have. 

 

Of the original Heritage Klipsch (KH, LS, BK, CW, and H), all but the Heresy have their little horns elevated pretty well off the floor. The Heresy was designed like the others to be on the floor into a corner and toed-in, but because its little horns' elevations are much lower to the floor, the high end is set to be +3dB compared to the others in order to approach the same tonal balance as the other big Heritage speakers. Which the Heresy does fairly well if placed like that.

 

A lot of modern mainstream hifi advice suggests pulling speakers out into the room and elevating them on stands. This will cause the Heresy to lose boundary bass reinforcement. According to PWK in the "Eight Cardinal Points" 1961 Cavities section - to wit, a 14 inch elevation causes -24dB at 50Hz and great mischief within the two octaves above that. Elevation of the Heresy up closer to ear level will present their sound as too hot, and that in combination with the massive loss of low end will result in a very thin (but clean) tone.

 

A lot of Heresy listeners have "fixed" their speakers with corner floor room placement or a direct internal adjustment to re-balance the high end with respect to the low using the autoformer taps or other circuits.

 

I will say again, anyone who has learned how to make Heresy wonderful, by whatever methods, will be in 7th Heaven with the La Scala.

[Peter P.]

NOW we're gettin' somewhere!

 

I was looking for that user description that would explain how the LaScala's produce something the Heresy's cannot while their low ends' are only a few hertz apart.

 

I start reading things such as,

 

10 hours ago, Chris A said:

the coupling of that sound to the room's acoustics.

Sure; pzannucci is talking about the Klipshorn here, but I think it applies to the LaScala as well.

9 hours ago, pzannucci said:

portray the size of the bass that was there.

Here, pauln confirms that coupling the speaker to the room by proximity to the floor is key for the Heresy, as well as the other models, to bring out one of the hallmarks of the Klipsch horn loading. I mean, I'm a new owner of a pair of Heresy's and I'm constantly reminded when I feel the woofer stimulate the furniture across the room, even at modest levels, of these principles. I've no doubt the LaScala's horn loading brings this up to an entirely new level.

1 hour ago, pauln said:

Of the original Heritage Klipsch (KH, LS, BK, CW, and H), all but the Heresy have their little horns elevated pretty well off the floor. The Heresy was designed like the others to be on the floor into a corner and toed-in, but because its little horns' elevations are much lower to the floor, the high end is set to be +3dB compared to the others in order to approach the same tonal balance as the other big Heritage speakers. Which the Heresy does fairly well if placed like that.

 

A lot of modern mainstream hifi advice suggests pulling speakers out into the room and elevating them on stands. This will cause the Heresy to lose boundary bass reinforcement. According to PWK in the "Eight Cardinal Points" 1961 Cavities section - to wit, a 14 inch elevation causes -24dB at 50Hz and great mischief within the two octaves above that. Elevation of the Heresy up closer to ear level will present their sound as too hot, and that in combination with the massive loss of low end will result in a very thin (but clean) tone.

 

A lot of Heresy listeners have "fixed" their speakers with corner floor room placement or a direct internal adjustment to re-balance the high end with respect to the low using the autoformer taps or other circuits.

 

I will say again, anyone who has learned how to make Heresy wonderful, by whatever methods, will be in 7th Heaven with the La Scala.

 

[jason str]

Having the Heresy on the floor does impact bass response but the problem is unless you are sitting on the floor the horns are directed too low and sound sub-par.

 

Angled risers help somewhat but i still say put them up off the floor and add some proper sub's for best results.

 

As for comparing a direct radiating 12" woofer to a horn loaded 15" there really is no comparison.

[Rivervalleymgb]

I ran both La Scala and Heresy at the same time pushed by a Marantz 2226b for a lot of years. Loved the sound of both together. The Heresy were elevated about 18" off the floor and next to the La Scala. It was my bedroom system.

[AaronB123]

I've never heard Heresey's but I have had much experience with la Scala's and before that I had (well still do) chorus's and even going from the Chorus to the La Scala I can tell you the sound stage is MUCH larger. If your not familiar with what we mean by soundstage the best way to describe it is in my opinion the soundstage of a La Scala and K-horn is pretty much like your at a concert. It's just so engulfing and the vocals are so in your face. When I first heard the La Scala's and played a live performance just as soon as the crowd start's cheering it honestly takes your breath away. It literally feels like your in the middle of the arena then when they start singing it's enough to bring tears to your eyes. 

 

When PWK set out to bring the experience of a live performance into your living room with the K-horn's and La Scala's he succeeded in a BIG way! If you looking to upgrade from Heresy's to La Scala's I can tell you, you will be in for a huge treat they are definitely some of my favorite speakers! 

[cincymat]

39 minutes ago, AaronB123 said:

I've never heard Heresey's but I have had much experience with la Scala's and before that I had (well still do) chorus's and even going from the Chorus to the La Scala I can tell you the sound stage is MUCH larger. If your not familiar with what we mean by soundstage the best way to describe it is in my opinion the soundstage of a La Scala and K-horn is pretty much like your at a concert. It's just so engulfing and the vocals are so in your face. When I first heard the La Scala's and played a live performance just as soon as the crowd start's cheering it honestly takes your breath away. It literally feels like your in the middle of the arena then when they start singing it's enough to bring tears to your eyes. 

 

When PWK set out to bring the experience of a live performance into your living room with the K-horn's and La Scala's he succeeded in a BIG way! If you looking to upgrade from Heresy's to La Scala's I can tell you, you will be in for a huge treat they are definitely some of my favorite speakers! 

Nailed it. That's exactly what I was thinking.  When I first "stumbled upon" Klipsch speakers I went for the Forte IIs because I thought the "specs" made them the the best choice. A year later I restored a set of La Scala Industrials and was dumbfounded. Live music reproduced effortlessly at any volume. I was hooked. My advice would be to listen to the large Heritage speakers before spending your money. 

 

Mark

[AaronB123]

If the topic creator is looking for a pair of la Scala's I actually have a pair for sale. Black not the prettiest they are a bit beat up but work great and given their shape I'll be willing to work out a deal on the price

[Carbon_66]

The Heresy is the speaker you had in your bedroom in the 80's that your parents told you to turn down.

 

The LaScala is your first concert.

 

No comparison. 

 

 

[Heritage_Head]

Listen to what you have and as its playing try and really focus on the full size of the voice in your room. Now try and imagine if you were to measure the voice size with your arms open horizontal and vertical. What ever you come up with now try imagine what it might sound like if it was that 3-5x the size. The voice on the larger high octane klipschs will size wall to floor to ceiling.... effortlessly. And really with almost no power (with in reason to size of room of course). When I first heard that voice everything just clicked (on what the point of big). I guess I probably did know but that was when it became crystal clear on what the hype is all about.

 

Peps are right you do have to hear it to really know know. But size and little effort for it are what will jump out at you. 

[Idontknow]

Quite informative.