Jubilee advice needed.

[mark1101]

I purchased a pair of K-69s in early 2016 and it was still series 1, marked BM-D750.

 

Edit:  Purchased from Klipsch.   The series 2 was out already commercially for P-Audio.

 

 

[Chris A]

The K-69-A takes the most equalization filters, while the TAD 4002 takes fewer filters to flatten its response on the K-402.  Any driver that reduces the number of PEQs is really going to be a necessity if thinking about passives.

 

Note that I'm currently using a K-69-A on my K-402-MEH. 

 

Bob: have you used the Faital Pro HF206 on a K-402 horn?

 

Chris

[BEC]

I tested the HF-206 on the K-402 but was not as pleased with it's performance as the HF-200.   Heinz, probably the owner of the only Jubilees in Germany has used it and the HF-200.  I do not know which he preferred.  Now the Faital HF-20AT is a better driver than the HF-200, but that being better is really at the very top end above 18khz.

 

Bob Crites

[Chris A]

That's pretty high..."air" territory.

[jwc]

3 hours ago, BEC said:

I much prefer the Faital HF-200 to any of the drivers that can be used on the K-402. 

I forgot about this option.

 

I setup a guy in town with the Faital HF-200 on the K402 with Bobs XO provided.  Plug and play.  This is a very easy startup with one amp.  Bob can make the XO for this route or the K69 (not as good IMO)

[ATLAudio]

On 12/18/2016 at 7:18 PM, RSVRMAN said:

Pic of my first setup. Trying to find other pics and will post. Painted the room copper to match the woofers. 

 

Speakers way too close together, perhaps this was why you got headaches. You'll want even more space for Jubs

[Coytee]

Here's another thought if you want to break it up into smaller bites.

 

Find a used pair of LaScalas.  Full speaker or 2-piece.

 

Get the 402 for the top of them and make a JubeScala.

 

Use the savings to buy a horn subwoofer that will mate well with the LaScalas.

 

You might be able to put that together for less expense than the Jubilee cost and it will still kick some serious hiney.

 

 

[richieb]

It's amazing how the 402 dwarfs the LS, with or without the top hat. Those pics really puts into perspective the size of the 402. 

[Coytee]

Yep.  In absolute numbers, height/width it's actually larger than the LaScala

 

Makes it kind of fun when you can say "my tweeter is larger than your entire speaker"

 

[mark1101]

4 hours ago, Chris A said:

The K-69-A takes the most equalization filters, while the TAD 4002 takes fewer filters to flatten its response on the K-402.  Any driver that reduces the number of PEQs is really going to be a necessity if thinking about passives.

 

Note that I'm currently using a K-69-A on my K-402-MEH. 

 

Bob: have you used the Faital Pro HF206 on a K-402 horn?

 

Chris

 

I don't use the K-69 on the 402s in either of my systems that contain 402s.

 

Unrelated comment.....

If you use the method of an outboard EQ with passives then EQ becomes irrelevant as to driver selection.  You use the one that approaches your audio goal.

[RSVRMAN]

12 hours ago, Chris A said:

Yes, I do.  The B&C DE75 is a much better sounding driver, IME.  The high end is much smoother sounding with a lot less perceived diaphragm breakup mode ringing at 13.5 kHz (perceived as raspier sounding cymbal crashes), which is the majority of the difference in sound.  It's much closer to a TAD TD4002 in terms of its high end than the K-69-A (P.Audio BM-D750) .  It's a significant difference that you'll likely hear after only a few hours of listening time (i.e., the difference isn't immediately apparent).

 

The price should be about $100-$150 more per driver, and I believe it's well worth it.  If however, you're over 65 years old and your HF hearing isn't too good, the difference in sound is probably a lot less perceivable.  YMMV.

 

Chris

Thank you Chris! Im in my early 30's and still can hear the upper limits of 20Khz The less fatigue while listening the better, and (assuming) from the breakup mode you explained these will solve that.

11 hours ago, jwc said:

If going for the two way route....I agree. 

 

The TADS on 402 for 2 way is a real winner......settings available and many here can share their experience.  

 

 

Thats 2 for the B&C!

 

Would love TAD 4002 with BE diaphrams. Sadly they are out of my price range. Maybe when budget is open again these could be considered. 

[RSVRMAN]

 

8 hours ago, BEC said:

I tested the HF-206 on the K-402 but was not as pleased with it's performance as the HF-200.   Heinz, probably the owner of the only Jubilees in Germany has used it and the HF-200.  I do not know which he preferred.  Now the Faital HF-20AT is a better driver than the HF-200, but that being better is really at the very top end above 18khz.

 

Bob Crites

 

Since they are obtainable, maybe these could be replacement in the future if the B&C are not to my liking. 

 

7 hours ago, ATLAudio said:

Speakers way too close together, perhaps this was why you got headaches. You'll want even more space for Jubs

Indeed they are. These are when I first got my RF-82s and had much to learn (still do). My RF7's were in the corners. I non longer live in that house and moved so the corners are different, thankfully about 5 feet wider. Jubes would go all the way into the corners for sure!

6 hours ago, Coytee said:

Here's another thought if you want to break it up into smaller bites.

 

Find a used pair of LaScalas.  Full speaker or 2-piece.

 

Get the 402 for the top of them and make a JubeScala.

 

Use the savings to buy a horn subwoofer that will mate well with the LaScalas.

 

You might be able to put that together for less expense than the Jubilee cost and it will still kick some serious hiney.

 

 

Saw some interesting concepts of what people do with the 402. I think this would still put me in the "what if I had, I wish I should of" category. Thanks for sharing!

4 hours ago, mark1101 said:

 

I don't use the K-69 on the 402s in either of my systems that contain 402s.

 

Unrelated comment.....

If you use the method of an outboard EQ with passives then EQ becomes irrelevant as to driver selection.  You use the one that approaches your audio goal.

Hi Mark,

 

Do you mind sharing what you use on your 402s?

[RSVRMAN]

Roy developed Active settings for both the K69A and the TAD 4002. Are there settings for the B&C out there or if I went with that option, would I be on my own?

[Chris A]

If you're willing to get a calibration microphone and install REW on your computer, and you're using a digital crossover, this isn't an issue.  It takes perhaps an hour or so after the initial measurement is emailed to get back corrections, then perhaps one more round of measurement and emailing, then the response can be flattened to within ± 2 dB over its entire passband--if your crossover has sufficient PEQ filters available per channel. 

 

This is more a function of the quality and capability of the crossover that you select.  The mechanics of finding the right PEQ settings are pretty trivial using REW, IME.

 

Chris

[Chris A]

11 hours ago, ATLAudio said:

Speakers way too close together, perhaps this was why you got headaches. You'll want even more space for Jubs

I've found that the stereo separation angle isn't typically associated with "headaches", but it does affect the sense of envelopment.  See Toole's book for more on this subject.

 

Jubilees are corner horns and as such they rely on the acoustic support of the room's two walls and floor to complete the last expansion of the horn for sufficient bass response.  If corners are not available, then false corners can be constructed to approximate the acoustic support of a room corner.

 

The loudspeakers shown in the picture above from the OP were designed to be placed away from room corners--although they can be used in room corners with sufficient EQ to their bass response, resulting in improve bass performance due to reduce cone excursions for the same on-axis SPL.  They will perform as designed located where they are shown.  The listening distance chosen is the only variable which isn't known from the picture, and determines the degree of satisfaction of the loudspeaker placement.

 

Chris

[mikebse2a3]

4 hours ago, RSVRMAN said:

Roy developed Active settings for both the K69A and the TAD 4002. Are there settings for the B&C out there or if I went with that option, would I be on my own?

 

Yes Roy has provided settings for the B&C DE75 on the K402.

 

miketn 

[Chris A]

Those B&C driver settings on a K-402 probably need to be linked for future reference.   I couldn't find them.

 

Chris

[mark1101]

7 hours ago, RSVRMAN said:

 

 

Since they are obtainable, maybe these could be replacement in the future if the B&C are not to my liking. 

 

Indeed they are. These are when I first got my RF-82s and had much to learn (still do). My RF7's were in the corners. I non longer live in that house and moved so the corners are different, thankfully about 5 feet wider. Jubes would go all the way into the corners for sure!

Saw some interesting concepts of what people do with the 402. I think this would still put me in the "what if I had, I wish I should of" category. Thanks for sharing!

Hi Mark,

 

Do you mind sharing what you use on your 402s?

 

I have tried many drivers on the K402 over the 8 years I have used these CD horns.  Faitals, BMS4592ND, K69, TAD.  I have not tried the B&C drivers.

 

Couple of comments...........Budget does not come into play here.  Mainly because the price differences are not that much.  I want a certain sound and so the cost of the driver has nothing to do with any of my comments.  In this instance I did not shop by price.  My audio goal is to maintain the "Klipsch sound"...........which could be a different goal than what others are trying to do.

 

A word on EQ.  This can get a little complicated.  But because the 402 and 510 are CD horns they require EQ in the 500-5K range to undo the CD horn bump.  That's a function of their design.  People are speaking of "Roy's settings"...........Klipsch engineering provided the settings for some driver/horn combinations to make this easy.

 

If you have an "active" crossover these settings are programmed in (in additon to time delays and crossover points also provided) and off you go.  If you want to change anything for tweaking this is very easy since it is simple programming of a processor.  Very flexible solution.

 

If you have a passive crossover there were schematics Klipsch/Crites provided that included the EQ in the crossover.  Complicated to build, many components.  Works well.  However, not flexible.  Not very adjustable.  Change drivers.......you are outta luck.  Want to change your crossover point or EQ a little differently.......you are outta luck.  Rebuild.  Expensive.

 

I have both types of setups.  An active......with the speaker setup in my Avatar (not Jubs), and another setup using passives (not Jubs).

 

I chose an ALK type of passive network.  It is a different manufacturer than what others using Jubs are using.  It is flexible for different drivers, adjustable for attenuation combinations of midrange and tweeter, has no EQ in the crossover and uses extreme slopes.  I use a DBX 31 band graphic EQ on the tape monitor loop of preamp.  This has been an excellent solution that has withstood the test of time and sound comparisons for years as well as facilitated trying many different driver and horn combinations.

 

Lastly..........2 way or 3 way.  All the drivers I mentioned above I used in both 2 way and 3 way combinations.  I preferred 3-way with K402 midrange and K510 tweeter.  It's just a preference after many tests.  The 2-way testing I did was satisfying.  Many have stopped there and are happy.  I thought it was OK.  Just happier with 3-way.  On the 402 horns I am using the TAD drivers on one setup and the BMS4592ND (just mid range) on the other setup.

 

After all the dust settled I put K-69s on both of my 510 tweeter setups simply because I felt they give me more of a "klipsch" sound than other drivers.  Other drivers had better high end extension (especially the BMS).  I chose the K69 based on the sound.  I had bad talked this driver in the past.  I ended up returning to it.

 

When using the K69 as a tweeter on the 510 horn the crossover is at 6K (in my setup).  This is past the CD bump curve which ends around 5K.  So there is virtually no EQ required in this application.  I think I have a slight boost at 10 or 11K.  I forget.

[Khornukopia]

On ‎12‎/‎18‎/‎2016 at 5:10 PM, RSVRMAN said:

Wife is allowing me to buy the speakers of choice (no matter how ugly), since the primary reason we moved is due to her work. However one caveat. Since she has seen me buy 3 separate systems and a plethora of IEMS. No more systems for at least 10 years…(limit on IEMS as well – please ears don’t grow)  So I have to choose wisely. This also considering she is helping fund this addiction. Happy wife, very happy life! (Bonus – showed her a pic of Jubes and she is ok with them)

 

Are you waiting for her to change her mind? Go big now, or forever wish you did.

[mark1101]

Just another comment to try and be helpful.  A few of us bought used TAD 4002 drivers from a seller on Ebay earlier this year for around $500 - $600 each.  He had many sets and you may just find an opportunity like this.  I don't know I haven't looked lately.