Jubilee advice needed.

[Paducah Home Theater]

Just got back in town from the pilgrimage, need to get caught up on this conversation.  I knew there was supposedly some hissing in the Xilica unit but this is the first I've heard of there being weak midbass. 

 

Anyway, been listening to and/or playing with jubes for the past few days, and yeah the midbass was far from weak, even in the middle of a pole barn.  I brought two home with me, these were Roy's personal ones which I'm honored to have, they are the very first pair of the current build style.  

 

Jubes were used on Friday night for the Q and A from Paul Jacobs as well as some music playing.  The new 1502 sub was introduced in between them, it's basically a smaller version of the 1802, otherwise same concept.  This one single 15 and two jubes were about the punchiest midbass I have ever heard.  Drums like big floor toms were insane on the better recordings.  Mark Casavant the VP played something, seems like it was Rush, he told me and of course I forgot, but it was nuts, the attack was just second to none.  

 

Will upload pics soon, I can't figure out how to share to PhotoBucket on my new phone.  

 

[juniper]

13 minutes ago, Speed said:

That's what I'm thinking, and was expecting... I love bass in my music.

Hang in there, you will get it right! Not that how much a speaker costs truly matters, but someone recently wanted to trade me some 250lb each, " high end"  speakers for my secondary system, they were 18k a pair new. I declined, my Jubs are in a way different league than my secondary system. Good Luck!

[juniper]

13 minutes ago, MetropolisLakeOutfitters said:

Just got back in town from the pilgrimage, need to get caught up on this conversation.  I knew there was supposedly some hissing in the Xilica unit but this is the first I've heard of there being weak midbass.

 

Anyway, been listening to and/or playing with jubes for the past few days, and yeah the midbass was far from weak, even in the middle of a pole barn.  I brought two home with me, these were Roy's personal ones which I'm honored to have, they are the very first pair of the current build style.

 

Jubes were used on Friday night for the Q and A from Paul Jacobs as well as some music playing.  The new 1502 sub was introduced in between them, it's basically a smaller version of the 1802, otherwise same concept.  This one single 15 and two jubes were about the punchiest midbass I have ever heard.  Drums like big floor toms were insane on the better recordings.  Mark Casavant the VP played something, seems like it was Rush, he told me and of course I forgot, but it was nuts, the attack was just second to none.

 

Will upload pics soon, I can't figure out how to share to PhotoBucket on my new phone.

 

This is what I am used to hearing, its so powerful and clear that with some recordings it will make you uncomfortable, because you just cant believe what you are feeling and what is flying around your head.. The separation of instruments and clarity, is like nothing I have ever heard....

[Speed]

14 minutes ago, juniper said:

Hang in there, you will get it right! Not that how much a speaker costs truly matters, but someone recently wanted to trade me some 250lb each, " high end"  speakers for my secondary system, they were 18k a pair new. I declined, my Jubs are in a way different league than my secondary system. Good Luck!

I will not give up, no problem there. I've been playing some of my favorite recordings. An example, the song " Would " by Alice in Chains. It starts off with a righteous bass riff, on my LS, it would just make me shake my head in amazement.. I just played it on the Jubes, and the bass riff had no definition and kind of sounded like mud.

[Paducah Home Theater]

Backstage selfie.   

 

Mr. J was a big hit with the ladies.  

 

Bonehead spilling my $8 a bottle Trappists all over some.  Paul Jacobs in the background.  

 

Toys in the lab.  

 

Listening room in the lab.  Thought the logo was cool for some reason.  

 

The other one in the listening room in the lab.  

[Chris A]

13 minutes ago, Speed said:

I just played it on the Jubes, and the bass riff had no definition and kind of sounded like mud.

Maybe one or more pix of your room might help.  This sounds like more than one issue: settings and room acoustics.  I'd say you've got reverberation time issues at midbass frequencies (RT60 is too long, requiring absorption--like bass traps in one or more corners, etc.) But I hate to start recommending items to look at--and/or fix--without seeing a layout.  Even a hand-drawn plan view drawing of the room (with dimensions) and ceiling height will help a great deal.

 

Chris

[TasDom]

Removed: Off topic subject matter

[Paducah Home Theater]

16 minutes ago, Speed said:

I will not give up, no problem there. I've been playing some of my favorite recordings. An example, the song " Would " by Alice in Chains. It starts off with a righteous bass riff, on my LS, it would just make me shake my head in amazement.. I just played it on the Jubes, and the bass riff had no definition and kind of sounded like mud.

 

My first thought on this statement is that funk nasty bass guitar riffs like that are way more midrange than bass.  A bass guitar can literally produce nearly the entire spectrum of audible frequencies.  To get the definition, everything has to blend nicely.  If you had only bass / midbass without the upper extension and blending, you'd get what you are saying. Read this article:

 

http://soundstage.com/maxdb/maxdb061999.htm

 

 

[Chris A]

The last time I actually talked with Roy face-to-face, we had an agreement that the idea of "fast bass" or "slow bass" really isn't an engineering thing so much as a way that listeners convey their experiences.  I've never liked the terms (and Roy knows that, too), so I talk more in terms of "accurate" or "sloppy" (i.e., whether or not mass effects dominate to alter the listening experience).  I think these terms are more descriptive, but more likely to offend those that fall on the "other side of the issue".  I'm okay with that, since I've always been into "accurate"--like PWK wrote about extensively.

 

I believe what Cory is saying is basically correct though.  If you've got a combination of poor room acoustics at the listening position (and it sounds like you do to describe Jub performance like that), and non-flat loudspeaker response (i.e., too much midbass--which the Jubilee as-is has without correction, and too little midrange and HF), you'd be describing the sound in the terms that you have.  I've been there, myself.

 

But note that there are also a other areas that might be involved:

• too much or too little deep bass frequency response
• uneven frequency response across the listening spectrum (not just too little midrange and treble)
• the listening axis of the midrange/treble horn in-room relative to a prior loudspeaker is higher or lower (e.g., La Scala vs. Jub)
• coupling of the loudspeaker to room modes (i.e., where the bass bins are located and how well they actually couple) which will affect the RT60 of the room with the loudspeaker that's playing in the midbass region
• something else in the electronics chain that's not quite right.

 

Chris

[Speed]

32 minutes ago, Chris A said:

Maybe one or more pix of your room might help.  This sounds like more than one issue: settings and room acoustics.  I'd say you've got reverberation time issues at midbass frequencies (RT60 is too long, requiring absorption--like bass traps in one or more corners, etc.) But I hate to start recommending items to look at--and/or fix--without seeing a layout.  Even a hand-drawn plan view drawing of the room (with dimensions) and ceiling height will help a great deal.

 

Chris

I must have a setup issue. If I mute channel 1 and 3 on DX 38 which is my LF, the HF sounds cheap and tinny.

I have my pre amp L going to input 1 on the the dx 38, and R, going to input 2. I have output 1 and 3 from DX 38 to Crown amp for the LF.  Output 2 and 4, to Crown for the HF. If this helps...

[Paducah Home Theater]

The "bass detail" paragraph from that article is what made me think of it:

"What about bass detail? How come one speaker has so much more bass detail than another? This too is strictly driver integration and NOT the quality of the woofer itself, as you may have heard. The fact is, bass detail comes from the midrange driver. But your ear/brain is so completely fooled by this complex interaction of midrange and bass sound that you believe that it is strictly a bass-related thing. It isn’t, and you can prove it by listening to something very boring but also very instructive. Listen to a subwoofer all by itself for a while. You won’t hear anything vaguely resembling speed coming from that slow, soggy-sounding, plodding subwoofer. It has no detail and no speed whatsoever when heard all by itself. Integrate it carefully with a nice set of main speakers, however, and suddenly the subwoofer has scads of detail, and if the integration is off a little, the bass will sound fast or slow too. All of that sense of speed and detail is coming from the main speakers, but from the midrange, not the woofer. That is why the integration of the woofer and the midrange drivers is so critical to getting a good-sounding speaker."

Sound familiar?  

[Chris A]

Yes.

[Speed]

5 minutes ago, Chris A said:

Yes.

Cool. When I mute the LF, the HF has no bass , mid bass, sounds like a transistor radio.  Must double check my settings...

[Chris A]

26 minutes ago, Speed said:

If I mute channel 1 and 3 on DX 38 which is my LF, the HF sounds cheap and tinny.

Yes, that's what is sounds like if you cut off everything below 400-450 Hz.

 

27 minutes ago, Speed said:

I have my pre amp L going to input 1 on the the dx 38, and R, going to input 2. I have output 1 and 3 from DX 38 to Crown amp for the LF.  Output 2 and 4, to Crown for the HF.

Yes, this is the way that the "BNC" driver settings are laid out, as well as all the other compression driver tables used with the K-402 and K-510 horns.

 

It's also the way that I have laid out my active crossovers - inputs start at the left front and continue around the listening position in clockwise order (L, C, R, RS, LS, subs).  Outputs are routed in similar fashion so it's easy to remember.

 

Chris

[Paducah Home Theater]

These are my new ones.  My room is so dark due to being solid flat black that I can never take decent pics but surely you get the idea.  

 

Coming home in the U-Haul.  

 

Just for size comparison.  The dinky thing on the left is 1/4 of an 800 pound quad 18 setup.  RP-260F to the right, then Heresy.  It's slightly humorous I suppose.  

 

Temporarily set up, probably not their permanent home, room will probably be flipped 180 degrees.  

 

 

[derrickdj1]

Great discussion guys.  People don't get that the low bass is not the determinant of fast and slow or that a big driver has to be slower than a smaller or lighter weight driver.  Cory, with the number of speaker you have heard and have, we should start calling you Keeper of The Sound, lol.  Love the theater room!

[Speed]

Good news. I found some bass ! 2 & 4 outputs only had the " Hi " lights on. So I changed the settings to  lo-mid-hi. 1 & 3 outputs only had the  " Lo " lights on. Changed that to Lo-Mid. Sounds MUCH better. I thought setting the frequency cutoffs would take of that. Any more tricks about the DX 38 I should know ?

[jwc]

2 hours ago, MetropolisLakeOutfitters said:

These are my new ones

The jube connectors on top?  When did this start?

 

You get 402 with K691?

[Paducah Home Theater]

54 minutes ago, jwc said:

The jube connectors on top?  When did this start?

 

You get 402 with K691?

 

That was the old style when they first redid them.  These are the very first pair of the current build style if you don't count the terminal location.  First it was like this, then it moved to the side but still on top like Aaron's, now it's kind of on the side but on the upper back like Trent's.  Basically the three of us have the same bass bins but I'm pretty sure we all have different terminal locations.  There are little feet that come with the horn mount where you can elevate them enough for the wires to run underneath.  

[Paducah Home Theater]

 And yes I got the 402 with K-691 but it is the newer horn style.  There's been a little bit of confusion about this.  The old horns were made with a compression molding technique but the new ones are made by injection molding.  Otherwise it's the same thing.