Should I consider tube amp for my K-horns?

[wvu80]

2 hours ago, Chris A said:

Do you have carpet on the floor and something soft and fuzzy to go across the top of the Khorns (really...not kidding)...?

 

I'm not sure I understand the thinking behind this, Chris.  I'm trying to imagine what sounds would be bouncing off the top of the Khorn and I can only imagine it is the higher frequencies.  Can you explain the theory just a bit more?

+++

 

Aaron, I suggest you just listen to them for about a month before you change anything.  It could be that woofer is a bit stiff and just needs some playing time to break in a bit, and frankly the CD too to a lessor extent as they are both mechanical devices. 

 

If they are still too bright after a month then you could go ahead and make some changes.

[derrickdj1]

Reflections occur off all surfaces in the room.  There are also vertical room modes that can effect the sound.  The goal is to incorporate several things to correct the problem at the MLP.  You should try to not  just use one thing such as, EQ, room Tx or speaker position alone.  All these things have something to contribute.

[jimjimbo]

Apart from all of the room issues, real or imagined.....why in the world would you want to try to utilize a 5/7 channel tube amplifier?  Why not match your awesome uber bucks Khorns with a pair of Mcintosh MC30's or MC225/240 for two channel, and then if you wanted to use the Khorns for HT, use a switch to utilize a 5/7 channel amp?  IMHO, considering what you've gone through, and the money you've spent so far, your speakers (and you) deserve the best.

 

PM me if you'd like a reference for these folks:

http://www.vintagevacuumaudio.com/amps-for-sale/

 

Check out the switches just a little down the page:

 

http://hollowstate.netfirms.com/index.html

[Chris A]

1 hour ago, wvu80 said:

I'm not sure I understand the thinking behind this, Chris.  I'm trying to imagine what sounds would be bouncing off the top of the Khorn and I can only imagine it is the higher frequencies.  Can you explain the theory just a bit more?

See:

Chris

[jimjimbo]

Wouldn't it have been just a bit easier to provide a relatively simple answer to Dave's question?

[wvu80]

27 minutes ago, jimjimbo said:

Wouldn't it have been just a bit easier to provide a relatively simple answer to Dave's question?

 

Carpet good...wood bad. 

 

I'm still reading the other thread Chris linked to.  No doubt Chris is over my head most of the time but if I keep reading, eventually things start to settle in and make some good sense. 

+++

 

I have not done much critical listening with my Korns because they are part of my living room setup so I just enjoy them as a part of regular TV watching in the various 2.x, 3.x, 5.x configurations.  I change configurations, just for fun, and my wife would never notice.

 

I am expecting to make some changes to the XO in the next few weeks from Type AA to an A/4500 so I have turned off the other speakers and EQ is set flat.  The AVR is now set to 2.0 in Pure Audio or Stereo mode.  I want to get used to the Khorns native sound.  I'll then make changes one at a time, and report back on how things sound.

 

Including carpet on top. 

[jimjimbo]

I don't think "Carpet good, wood bad" was the issue, or the question (I think we all know that).....my take on the question was....."Why something soft and fuzzy across the tops of the Khorns?"  Does the top panel resonate?  Is there a reflection off the top that this would help?  OK, I can appreciate that kind of answer.  And I suppose to take it a bit further, if "something soft and fuzzy" across the tops of Khorns is of (some) benefit, does this also extend to something soft and fuzzy across the tops of La Scala's, Cornwall's, Chorus II's, Forte's, etc, etc, etc.??  

[wvu80]

9 minutes ago, jimjimbo said:

I don't think "Carpet good, wood bad" was the issue, or the question (I think we all know that).....my take on the question was....."Why something soft and fuzzy across the tops of the Khorns?"  Does the top panel resonate?  Is there a reflection off the top that this would help?  

 

You articulated my question greatly better than I did. 

[AaronB123]

3 hours ago, jimjimbo said:

Apart from all of the room issues, real or imagined.....why in the world would you want to try to utilize a 5/7 channel tube amplifier?  Why not match your awesome uber bucks Khorns with a pair of Mcintosh MC30's or MC225/240 for two channel, and then if you wanted to use the Khorns for HT, use a switch to utilize a 5/7 channel amp?  IMHO, considering what you've gone through, and the money you've spent so far, your speakers (and you) deserve the best.

 

PM me if you'd like a reference for these folks:

http://www.vintagevacuumaudio.com/amps-for-sale/

 

Check out the switches just a little down the page:

 

http://hollowstate.netfirms.com/index.html

Ya, I've thought of that myself just using a dedicated 2 channel for audio and switching when I want to use HT. I've also thought of the fact that perhaps they aren't fully broken in yet but I don't know I hear different things some say speaker break in is a myth some say it isn't but I will say with all the speakers I have bought new like the RC-64II I remember when I first got it I was very underwhelmed and thought it sounded extremely thin and tinny but as time passed and it broke it, I noticed a huge difference and it quickly became one of my favorite centers. Same thing with the RP-450C when I first got that one I think I even made a thread about how bad it initially sounded. 

[Schu]

thats how I run my LSii's... tube for 2 channel and class D for 5.1 music and Home Theater. It works great but I do have to switch wires from one setup to the other... it take 20 seconds.

Solid state can not touch tubes presentation for 2 channel if you are looking for that last percentile of sound quality any listening experience... but there are many great solid state amps that come close. 

[Chris A]

3 hours ago, jimjimbo said:

Wouldn't it have been just a bit easier to provide a relatively simple answer to Dave's question?

It's interesting that you seem to understand the subject of why placing acoustically absorbent material across the top of a Khorn improves its sound--since you're not actually asking for an explanation, but rather you've taken it upon yourself to ask for Dave. In the mean time, I always try to answer questions directly from the individuals themselves if they don't understand something that I've said.  I think it works better that way.

 

In the case of that FAQ, I wrote it in 2011 so that the issues that we are discussing in this thread don't have to be reinvented yet again.  It took time to write it in order to help those with corner-located loudspeakers to better understand the reasons why they might have issues with the performance of their loudspeakers--since most literature on "audiophile placement of loudspeakers" first tells you to pull your loudspeakers away from all walls.  I wrote that FAQ in order to reference it when someone asks a question that's addressed in it.

 

2 hours ago, wvu80 said:

I'm still reading the other thread Chris linked to.  No doubt Chris is over my head most of the time but if I keep reading, eventually things start to settle in and make some good sense. 

 

The meaning of "collapsing polar midrange horn" is that below a certain frequency, the midrange horn loses its ability to control its acoustic output in one dimension or the other (i.e., vertical or horizontal).  This means that its acoustic energy in that dimension (i.e., the vertical in the case of the K-400/401 midrange horn) goes all over the loudspeaker and the nearfield objects in that room.  The fuzzy stuff across the top of the loudspeaker attenuates the acoustic energy with the highest SPL that's bathing the top of the loudspeaker from the midrange horn--the areas that are closest to the midrange horn mouth.  That acoustic energy is being re-radiated by the top of the loudspeaker, thus unbalancing the sound of the loudspeaker to make it sound harsher and less coherent.  Early reflections are not desirable since they unbalance the sound (which is part of a somewhat more complex subject of psychoacoustics).  Absorbing the acoustic energy before it can be reflected/re-radiated audibly helps the overall sound and imaging.

 

If the floor, sidewalls and the ceiling of the room haven't been treated to absorb these early reflections around corner-located loudspeakers with collapsing polar midrange horns, it will result in poor sound. 

 

Most people that successfully use their corner-located loudspeakers with collapsing polar midrange horns are using something on the floor to absorb the downward-going acoustic energy in the 350-1700 Hz band that is not being controlled by the midrange horn, thus painting the floor with extra, unbalancing energy that is being reflected in the near field.  The upper area of the midrange horn is painting the loudspeaker, nearby walls and ceiling with extra, unbalancing acoustic energy.

 

Since human hearing integrates the direct sound from the loudspeaker with near-field reflections (including those from the midrange horn polar loss-of-control) into a complex whole, the effect of these early reflections from around the loudspeaker, including the  loudspeaker's top hat--which is a fairly large area, unbalance the sound.  It's easy to correct: just place some absorbent material on top of the top-hat, and on the side/front walls just at the height of the midrange horn mouth. 

 

If you want to correct the problem at its source, then place absorbent material around the midrange horn's mouth, like the Peavey QT horn that is shown in the Corner Horn Imaging FAQ link that I posted above.

_____________________________________________________________________

 

Is there anything about placing absorption material on top of the Khorn top hat that's still not clear?  Of course, you could also just place some material there and listen carefully instead of taking my work for it.  It's quick and easy to do to hear the difference.  If you can't hear the difference, then it doesn't matter to you...and you can ignore the advice that you asked for clarification on.

 

Chris

[wvu80]

1 hour ago, Chris A said:

The meaning of "collapsing polar midrange horn" is that below a certain frequency, the midrange horn loses its ability ...(respectful Snip!)

Ha!  Very good, as I read that, I was wondering!  Good catch. 

 

(more snip)

 

...  It's easy to correct: just place some absorbent material on top of the top-hat, and on the side/front walls just at the height of the midrange horn mouth. 

I will try that, thanks!

 

If you want to correct the problem at its source, then place absorbent material around the midrange horn's mouth, like the Peavey QT horn that is shown in the Corner Horn Imaging FAQ link that I posted above.

I read that with interest, and I will try that as well.  That foam around the mouth of the horn pic I had not seen before, it's something new for me to try.

 

I read than entire post, it was well written.  Thanks for posting it.

_____________________________________________________________________

 

Is there anything about placing absorption material on top of the Khorn top hat that's still not clear?  Of course, you could also just place some material there and listen carefully instead of taking my word for it.  It's quick and easy to do to hear the difference.  If you can't hear the difference, then it doesn't matter to you...and you can ignore the advice that you asked for clarification on.  -Chris

Thanks for your guidance, Chris, I shall do as you suggested, and the logic of it makes good sense to me.  I can make changes based on faith, but I try to learn and understand the "why" as well.

[Chris A]

In case you might wonder why Paul Klipsch designed a midrange horn that would intentionally lose its polar control within its operating frequency band, note that everything that he did balanced performance, complexity, and cost (just like any good engineer does).  In this particular instance, he needed a midrange horn that would meet the following requirements (in approximate priority order):

1. flat on-axis frequency response between the Khorn bass bin's upper end and the tweeter's lower end frequencies for the chosen midrange compression driver.
2. approximately flat off-axis frequency response for the chosen compression driver in the horizontal plane across that same band as the requirement #1 in order to cover the room with equal amounts of acoustic energy vs. frequency (i.e., no frequencies that it provides too much or too little off-axis energy vs. other frequencies at each off-axis angle).  It must do this for the chosen range of off-axis angles to cover the room equally with acoustic energy.
3. the horn should fit into the space that was allocated to it without having to bend it (i.e., it must be a straight horn in order to have flat on-axis FR).
4. the horn must provide low distortion up to very high driven loudness levels: harmonic, modulation, and compression distortion, for the chosen compression driver.

At the time that PWK designed the K-400 horn, the cost of providing equalization to the midrange horn via the crossover/balancing network was judged to be too expensive (which it no longer is via means other than passive electric networks).  He chose a horn that would simply spill its on-axis excess energy on the ceiling, floor, and loudspeaker cabinet at those frequencies where it had too much acoustic energy output relative to the highest frequencies that it had to also produce--where horns have the most trouble providing flat FR.  Hence we have the K-400 "collapsing polar" midrange horn, because the horn's polar control of energy "collapses" down to a narrower and narrower angle as the frequency rises, thus maintaining the same on-axis FR level. 

 

Also at that time, understanding of the psychoacoustics of human hearing wasn't quite as well known as it currently is, and the requirement for equal polar coverage control of off-axis output in both the horizontal and vertical axes wasn't as fully understood as it is today.  The most complaints about Klipsch Heritage loudspeakers come from those consumers that don't understand what the K-400 horn is doing (i.e., spilling its acoustic energy between ~350 and ~1700 Hz), and how to add a little acoustic absorption around the loudspeaker to absorb that spilled energy. 

 

It's actually a fairly elegant solution for that time, since other alternatives were either a) lower performing, b.) too complex, and/or c) too expensive.  All Klipsch Heritage owners need to do something with their room's acoustic treatments in order to integrate their collapsing polar midrange horns into the overall setup/listening room environment, and it's a fairly simple thing to achieve, but something must be done to absorb that extra acoustic energy on the near field ceiling, floor, and re-radiating from the loudspeaker's cabinet top. 

 

Since that time, it has become much easier to correct for uneven frequency response of the midrange/high frequency horn vs. frequency in order to have "constant coverage" of off-axis polar energy in both the horizontal and vertical directions (like the K-510 and K-402 horns provide).  The increase in listening sound quality of these two horns is much greater than the downside of having to equalize each horn's output SPL vs. frequency.  (It has been proven that to have constant coverage in both axes, you will have uneven on-axis frequency response that must be corrected via equalization.)

 

So for the K-510 and K-402 horns, requirement #1 (above) is replaced with a requirement to be able to easily equalize the horn's output vs. frequency.  The solution using this new requirement has produced much better sounding loudspeakers, such as the Jubilee.

 

You can convert Klipsch Heritage loudspeakers to use either the K-510 or K-402 horns with better 2" compression drivers (which eliminate the requirement for a separate tweeter and set of electrical crossover filters, with their associated headaches).  These configurations are variously called "JubScalas" and "JuBelles", but it can be done for the remaining Klipschorn, Cornwall, and Heresy models.  This has effectively been done many years ago in the Cinema and PA product lines, which have replaced their collapsing polar midrange horns with controlled coverage (CC) horns.

 

Chris

[AaronB123]

On 12/28/2016 at 10:34 PM, Schu said:

thats how I run my LSii's... tube for 2 channel and class D for 5.1 music and Home Theater. It works great but I do have to switch wires from one setup to the other... it take 20 seconds.

Solid state can not touch tubes presentation for 2 channel if you are looking for that last percentile of sound quality any listening experience... but there are many great solid state amps that come close. 

What solid state amps would you recommend that come close to tube quality for 2 channel? I know I have seen many people say they run Pioneer for heritage stuff and and I for one used to as well. I had the Pioneer VSX-90 which I thought sounded incredible and to be honest a little better than the Marantz but there was that whole issue with the flickering that I made a thread about a couple months back but actually that turned out to be an issue with my computer and had nothing to do with my AVR.

 

So I basically ended up exchanging the Pioneer when there was really nothing wrong with it. 

 

[Chris A]

On 12/28/2016 at 4:30 PM, Wolfbane said:

If you've got a dedicated music/movie sound room these look like they would help with reflected sound. If not, and there's a woman with some say around your place, I'd run it past her first. I'd be found hanging from them with a note pinned to my chest the morning after any such installation around here. 

 

There's some "all or nothing" thinking that I've run into on this subject.  The idea--that if you can't do everything suggested means that you do nothing--seems to be a mea culpa for those that have room acoustics issues but wind up buying a tube amplifier, thinking that will solve room acoustics/loudspeaker placement issues.  In rooms with low ceilings (less than ~9 feet), no carpet on the floor in front of the (Heritage) loudspeakers, and too many acoustic reflectors too close to the loudspeakers, you've likely got a problem with the resulting sound. 

 

 

In the above figure, the visual aesthetics of a basement room are corrected, but not the acoustical issues.  Introduction of the cabinet under the TV actually makes things worse than having nothing on the front wall, and lowering the ceiling by adding the ceiling treatment also degrades the acoustic performance of the room for Klipsch Heritage loudspeakers.  If you believe that doing nothing to improve the acoustics that you're hearing via absorption and/or diffusion placed strategically, get used to that sound that you have. 

 

Tubes aren't going to magically solve those issues--but only shift the on-axis frequency response of your Heritage loudspeakers to introduce a net "house curve", decreasing the mid-highs between 1-10 kHz. This won't deal with the cause of the problem: early reflections from excess acoustic energy from 500Hz to 2 kHz.  See the thread below for a collection of Klipsch impedance curves (linked below). 

 

If using a high output impedance amplifier (e.g., especially SETs without feedback) the frequencies where the loudspeaker's input  impedance is high will experience a net decrease in on-axis response.  I find it's a lot less expensive to use EQ, including using freeware plugins upstream of the DAC, to slightly attenuate those areas than to use high output impedance tube amplifiers to try to deal with room acoustics issues.

 

Chris

[Schu]

12 hours ago, AaronB123 said:

What solid state amps would you recommend that come close to tube quality for 2 channel? I know I have seen many people say they run Pioneer for heritage stuff and and I for one used to as well. I had the Pioneer VSX-90 which I thought sounded incredible and to be honest a little better than the Marantz but there was that whole issue with the flickering that I made a thread about a couple months back but actually that turned out to be an issue with my computer and had nothing to do with my AVR.

 

So I basically ended up exchanging the Pioneer when there was really nothing wrong with it. 

 

to be honest... I have yet to hear an integrated that can touch the presence and speed of mono's. that's why I use pre outs to run my Bel Canto Class D's. eventually I will get another pair (perhaps mAmp's) to run the center and rears and leave the Pioneer Elite to just pre amp/room correction duty. That's my preference anyway.

 

if I had to suggest Solid state... I would have to honestly suggest something like my Bel Canto Class D's (they made dual mono and monoblock), Wyred (or other) mAmp's, or Hypex/nCore... those three are at the top of my "affordable" list until you get into First watt/nelson pass territory. I ALMOST always buy used, so I manage to save at least 50% off retail when I buy something.

[Chris A]

Bel Canto also uses ICEpower modules: http://www.icepower.bang-olufsen.com/en/news/news?id=59

 

These modules are also available in lower power versions as self-contained modules that you can integrate yourself into a metal box--and save even more money.

 

The self contained stereo amplifier module (50w/channel): http://www.classicaudioparts.com/index.php/amplifiers/bang-olufsen-icepower50asx2-module.html

 

A box and cables to put it into: http://www.ebay.com/itm/ghentaudio-ASX50-SR-A-DIY-Aluminum-Case-Kit-for-ICEpower-50ASX2-amplifier-/322063157502

 

When my metal box w/cables comes in (I've received the amplifier module already), I plan to do an A-B test with the First Watt F3 powering my TAD compression drivers.

 

Chris

 

[dBspl]

On December 28, 2016 at 11:30 PM, Chris A said:

The meaning of "collapsing polar midrange horn" is that below a certain frequency, the midrange horn loses its ability to control its acoustic output in one dimension or the other (i.e., vertical or horizontal).  This means that its acoustic energy in that dimension (i.e., the vertical in the case of the K-400/401 midrange horn) goes all over the loudspeaker and the nearfield objects in that room.  The fuzzy stuff across the top of the loudspeaker attenuates the acoustic energy with the highest SPL that's bathing the top of the loudspeaker from the midrange horn--the areas that are closest to the midrange horn mouth.  That acoustic energy is being re-radiated by the top of the loudspeaker, thus unbalancing the sound of the loudspeaker to make it sound harsher and less coherent.  Early reflections are not desirable since they unbalance the sound (which is part of a somewhat more complex subject of psychoacoustics).  Absorbing the acoustic energy before it can be reflected/re-radiated audibly helps the overall sound and imaging.

 

While what you say is true, it's probably not quite as bad as you might think.  At 400Hz the output is the sum of the midrange and woofer horn together.  The apparent size of both apertures will help control vertical coverage. And because the summation continues (to a lessor degree) above and below the crossover point, the vertical coverage will be narrower than the if the midrange were operating by itself. The woofer horn should have some measurable effect on up to 800 Hz, or so.

 

Kerry

[Chris A]

Yes, my experience is very much like the difference in sound from a K-402 and a K-510 horn.  In the chamber, the K-510 sounds very much like the K-402, but out of the chamber, some amount of "salt and pepper EQ" is needed on the K-510, or alternatively, a little absorption around the horn will also do the job.  I've attributed this to the 1-2 kHz band where the real problems exist. 

 

The good thing is that it's very easy to attenuate these frequencies relative to 400 Hz or even lower. A reasonable amount of acoustically absorptive material across the top of a Khorn and on the floor usually does the job.  Something fuzzy and soft that's about about 1-2 inches thick (i.e., close to 1/4 wavelength at 2 kHz) will usually be quite effective.

 

Chris

[jason str]

Most of the Nelson Pass designs would be a great place to start if going with reliable, great sounding Solid State designs. NAD and Luxman are great as well driving highly efficient horns.