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Klipsch RF7 ii + SVS PB2000


mhbernheim

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Hello erry'body...

 

I have the full reference series (rc64 ii,rb81 ii,rf7 ii) in my home theater. Ive had every speaker set to small except the rf7 ii's... those are set to large(audyssey made me do it)... Would settting these to 80hz and an xover of 80hz make any real difference in movies, sound better?? I guess I could go play movies all day and figure it out myself, but Id be easier if I just ask...

 

 

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You should change all speakers to small.  Most calibration programs set speakers to Large but, there can be cancellation issues and phase problems.  The use of the large setting is for when you don't have a subwoofer.  I have the same setup basically and set all the speakers to small.  The setting of small will give you more headroom, decrease the chance of blowing a speaker and let the power sub do the heavy lifting of the LF's.  Welcome to the forum.

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12 minutes ago, derrickdj1 said:

You should change all speakers to small.  Most calibration programs set speakers to Large but, there can be cancellation issues and phase problems.  The use of the large setting is for when you don't have a subwoofer.  I have the same setup basically and set all the speakers to small.  The setting of small will give you more headroom, decrease the chance of blowing a speaker and let the power sub do the heavy lifting of the LF's.  Welcome to the forum.

sorry, you mentioned cancellation issues and phase problems? could you please describe what this is?

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Here are two FR graphs of my system.  The first has the speakers set to small.   The second graph, the RF 7 II's are set to Large.  I loose all the low end beef starting around 35 Hz.  The subs are meant to give you the low end beef.  Having the RF 7 II set to large is almost like not having all the subs in my system.  This is the result of phase and cancellation issues.  I loose 30 db at 15 Hz, wow, that is a lot to give away.  To get this back I would need an addition 10 subwoofer!  Even then the subs and mains would be working harder than with the speakers set to small due to the phase and cancellation issues.

 

Note, from 50-80 Hz with the speakers set to small, the spl is around 6 db higher.  This is the added head room for the chest slam in movies.  You don't want to give that up either.  It's not about how good the subs or speakers are, it's physics.  With the RF 7's set to large, it's like not having eight 18 in. subwoofers in my system.

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47 minutes ago, mhbernheim said:

I set all crossovers for fronts including lpf for lfe to 80hz... i set center at 60 and surrounds to 60... ill watch something tomorrow...

Sent from my SM-G930F using Tapatalk
 

Your fronts would be where you should use the lowest  setting, depending on what your actual speakers are you are using of course. But your RF-7ii's will be where your lowest setting should be, your RC-64ii and RB-81 should be about 10 or so higher than the RF-7ii

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It is easier to just use a global XO for all speakers.  Nothing magic about using a lower XO except less head room.

 

Example of setting XO:

 

Front speakers 40 Hz 

center 60 Hz

surrounds 60 Hz 

sub 20 Hz- 200 Hz

XO range based on weakest speaker 20 Hz - 60 Hz  Set the XO 15-20 Hz above the weakest speaker which is the surround and center.  Auto calibration will set the XO base on something similar to this example.  The spec's for speakers are 1 meter reading and most of us sit further away than 1 meter.  Every doubling of the distance subtract 6 db.  You do gain back some efficiency due to small room and multiple speakers.  Some guys will set speakers(mains) lower for 2 channel but, for HT there is no proven benefit that I have seen in the literature and only a negative side such as blown tweeter, decrease head room, not using the sub in the chess slam area of the frequency response, etc.  The less frequencies that the Mains and other speakers have to reproduce, the less cone breakup and distortion.  Some people will say they can't hear it which is OK but, not a scientifically valid reason to do so.  The key is understanding why you are doing certain things and your systems limits.

 

If you have a good subwoofer, there is no reason to think that it will not produce as good of bass as the mains.  If the sub sounds slower, then there is a phase problem that has not been addressed.

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23 minutes ago, derrickdj1 said:

It is easier to just use a global XO for all speakers.  Nothing magic about using a lower XO except less head room.

 

I disagree, I prefer to use the lowest crossover to match the speaker capabilities of each speaker to a well blended point with the subwoofer and that speaker. This varies on the speakers and subwoofer being used. If the speaker permits I prefer the speaker to produce the bass rather than the sub down to about 50hz. Everyone's ears vary and at some point low frequency bass becomes unable to be detected from what direction it comes from. The lower crossover setting provides a more localized bass, this is especially important with music but also helps with HT as well. With a good blend with your subwoofer you should get the most from your speaker and the subwoofer will disappear and become an undetectable extension of the speakers bass.

 

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15 hours ago, derrickdj1 said:

Here are two FR graphs of my system.  The first has the speakers set to small.   The second graph, the RF 7 II's are set to Large.  I loose all the low end beef starting around 35 Hz.  The subs are meant to give you the low end beef.  Having the RF 7 II set to large is almost like not having all the subs in my system.  This is the result of phase and cancellation issues.  I loose 30 db at 15 Hz, wow, that is a lot to give away.  To get this back I would need an addition 10 subwoofer!  Even then the subs and mains would be working harder than with the speakers set to small due to the phase and cancellation issues.

 

Note, from 50-80 Hz with the speakers set to small, the spl is around 6 db higher.  This is the added head room for the chest slam in movies.  You don't want to give that up either.  It's not about how good the subs or speakers are, it's physics.  With the RF 7's set to large, it's like not having eight 18 in. subwoofers in my system.

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Am I wrong in thinking that when you set your speakers to large in your system that it has in fact either turned off your sub's, or simply stopped directing the low frequencies from the RF7's channels to the sub, hence the loss of the bass below 30hz? If so, that has nothing to do with phase or cancellation issues, does it? Would the bass below 30hz not be restored if you set the speakers to small but used say a 40hz crossover? 

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Yes SMALL/LARGE is a deceiving name for this setting, a better name would be SUBWOOFER/NO SUBWOOFER. If you are using a a good well matched subwoofer for your system you should set all your speakers to SMALL and then set the crossovers to a good setting point to blend your sub and speakers together. 

 

LARGE or Full Range is for no subwoofer being used.

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6 hours ago, Kevin S said:

Am I wrong in thinking that when you set your speakers to large in your system that it has in fact either turned off your sub's, or simply stopped directing the low frequencies from the RF7's channels to the sub, hence the loss of the bass below 30hz? If so, that has nothing to do with phase or cancellation issues, does it? Would the bass below 30hz not be restored if you set the speakers to small but used say a 40hz crossover? 

I can think of 4 or 5 different bass management schemes that I have ran across in different avr's.  This varies by avr, and model on which type of bass management scheme is employed or a quasi bass management scheme that still employs some management even if the mains are set to large.  

 

 Most of the people that develop these calibration programs will tell you to set the speakers to small to avoid phase and cancellation issues.  People don't like setting their Mains to Small because they attribute some special quality to them.   Some people will also employ the double bass feature or, sub + Mains which also no generally recommended.  A large portion of the money for an avr is due to Auddysee, MCACC, etc. which are sophisticated programs that are doing hundreds to thousand of things to get the sound correct.  This is just as important as the precious Main speakers IMO.

 

All of these type of programs  may need to be tweaked and are good starting points for room correction.  People can setup their system how they like but, the key is understanding your calibration program, gear, and trying to have a valid reason of why you are doing certain things.  It's like building a house, you need to have an ideal of how you are going to tackle the problem to anticipate certain problems or short coming and find work around that are appropriate

 

Most of the people on this forum have nice subwoofers in their system for HT so, why not put as much pride into the sub as the Main speakers.  All of these components work together.  One is not more important than the other.  People may disagree on some of these points but, few of them post FR graphs, bass decay, phase, waterfalls etc. for educational purposes on the forum.  Objective data is harder to ignore compared to subjective data.

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Thanks for the reply. I was actually asking about your system and your graphs. When your RF7's are set to large, no signal is being sent to your subs, hence reduced bass output in the RF7 set to large graph. Correct? Not really anything to do with phase or cancellation? Just curious.

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In the example of selecting XO, the center and surrounds went to 60 Hz and the sub could play up to 200 Hz.  The effective XO range is 60-200 Hz.  Set the XO 15-20 Hz higher than the weakest speaker put us to 75-80 Hz.  There are obvious reasons not to set the XO over 100 Hz as Rich guy pointed out, localization.

 

I have an 18 in. sub inches behind my couch and use a XO of 80 Hz.  You can't tell the sub is there.  All rooms are different and it takes a long time get to know the room, gear limits, and intricacies of the various calibrations.  There are 4 or more versions of Auddysee at this point.

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