ces *cough* CES 2017 *cough*

[DrWho]

22 hours ago, Chief bonehead said:

Doc just bite the bullet and get some ki396s. If you don't like them I will take them off your hands. I will make you am offer you can't refuse.

Hah! I've heard those already.

 

I really want a 15" 2-way with hypex amps and active xover. I've been hunting this down for many years now - that might be a fun forum search to find my first mention of it. I never thought Klipsch would ever come out with something like the Fifteens, but here they just announced it. No way! The thing is, I want it to be voiced like the ki396. None of this "no bass, SET like, tone" nonsense. Those are words I hear at the local audiophile boutiques when they're trying to overcharge for crap sound. I'm not saying that's the case here, but it's made me want to demo it first.

 

On the topic of mumps....Why isn't this just standard approach on all the horns now? It's not like it costs more to add that shape to the molds.

 

Yes, I'm totally being an annoying audiophile here, hah! This thing is so close to my ideal setup that any shortcoming would be so disappointing. I've wanted something like this so bad I've set out to build my own, but I could never bring myself to shell out for all the tooling costs. Plus, you guys are better at this stuff. This is a product niche that's been seriously lacking, but if it requires a subwoofer then it totally ruins the simplicity story.

[Jay L]

Fear not, the "15's" will have the proper Klipsch sound, I like what I have heard thus far.

[Chief bonehead]

3 hours ago, DrWho said:

Hah! I've heard those already.

 

I really want a 15" 2-way with hypex amps and active xover. I've been hunting this down for many years now - that might be a fun forum search to find my first mention of it. I never thought Klipsch would ever come out with something like the Fifteens, but here they just announced it. No way! The thing is, I want it to be voiced like the ki396. None of this "no bass, SET like, tone" nonsense. Those are words I hear at the local audiophile boutiques when they're trying to overcharge for crap sound. I'm not saying that's the case here, but it's made me want to demo it first.

 

On the topic of mumps....Why isn't this just standard approach on all the horns now? It's not like it costs more to add that shape to the molds.

 

Yes, I'm totally being an annoying audiophile here, hah! This thing is so close to my ideal setup that any shortcoming would be so disappointing. I've wanted something like this so bad I've set out to build my own, but I could never bring myself to shell out for all the tooling costs. Plus, you guys are better at this stuff. This is a product niche that's been seriously lacking, but if it requires a subwoofer then it totally ruins the simplicity story.

The mumps?  Well, The consumer side and commercial side are different these days when it comes to horn design.  As far as being voiced like the 396 , don't know. I think I vaguely remember what the klipsch sound is....

[Jainbaby]

15 hours ago, DrWho said:

Hah! I've heard those already.

 

I really want a 15" 2-way with hypex amps and active xover. I've been hunting this down for many years now - that might be a fun forum search to find my first mention of it. I never thought Klipsch would ever come out with something like the Fifteens, but here they just announced it. No way! The thing is, I want it to be voiced like the ki396. None of this "no bass, SET like, tone" nonsense. Those are words I hear at the local audiophile boutiques when they're trying to overcharge for crap sound. I'm not saying that's the case here, but it's made me want to demo it first.

 

On the topic of mumps....Why isn't this just standard approach on all the horns now? It's not like it costs more to add that shape to the molds.

 

Yes, I'm totally being an annoying audiophile here, hah! This thing is so close to my ideal setup that any shortcoming would be so disappointing. I've wanted something like this so bad I've set out to build my own, but I could never bring myself to shell out for all the tooling costs. Plus, you guys are better at this stuff. This is a product niche that's been seriously lacking, but if it requires a subwoofer then it totally ruins the simplicity story.

 

Im pretty certain you misread my responses.  No where did I say the Fifteens would have no bass.  They have plenty of bass (so far, early tuning still).  

 

A few things:  I said my nirvana was SET, High Sensitivity speakers etc.  and that TONE I love. Never said that was what the Fifteens would sound like.

 

On the Fifteens my goal was to use a low mass cone with limited excursion.  And I said it wasn't about the ultimate bass response (you can watch some videos on YouTube and hear me say the same thing).  All I mean by this is that we didn't use some crazy excursion large voice coil blah blah blah nonsense 15" driver.  Those types of drivers are very heavy, very slow and require gobs of power.  We want speed.

 

The reason I said they will sound like no other speaker on the market (and I'm talking retail market, not pro), is because most of the consumer stuff I see today focuses on exactly what I described above...3" voice coil, long excursion blah blah blah.  I'm with all of you that reproduction is the key, so we may sacrifice some ultimate bass excursion for dynamics, scale, speed and ultimately in my mind something closer to a speaker from that time before exaggerated bass response and frequency response up to and beyond 20K became design objectives.  

[dtel's wife]

@Jainbaby sure hope we can at least audition completed prototypes in Hope, AR at the Pilgrimage!  I know you're busy working on that!  

 

https://community.klipsch.com/index.php?/forum/118-klipsch-pilgrimage-2017/

[Jainbaby]

7 minutes ago, dtel's wife said:

@Jainbaby sure hope we can at least audition completed prototypes in Hope, AR at the Pilgrimage!  I know you're busy working on that!  

 

https://community.klipsch.com/index.php?/forum/118-klipsch-pilgrimage-2017/

 

Thats our hope...for HOPE.  Sorry I had to...lol

 

We talked about this on Thursday and are attempting to have a pair ready for the Pilgrimmage.  Whether they will be an active or passive pair, don't know yet..

[dtel's wife]

4 minutes ago, Jainbaby said:

 

Thats our hope...for HOPE.  Sorry I had to...lol

 

We talked about this on Thursday and are attempting to have a pair ready for the Pilgrimmage.  Whether they will be an active or passive pair, don't know yet..

I have complete faith in you and your team!  Would be a great time to show them off...but you already know that. 

[DrWho]

Speed and frequency response are the same thing. Why can't we just use normal terms? I could be shortsighted here, but you can't talk about mass outside motive force and cone stiffness. High excursion designs exist with high frequency extension and equally stiff diaphragms. And physics dictates that low displacement = no bass. Voicecoil magazine is often publishing exciting Klippel results.

 

The legacy of PWK was engineering driven designs. We don't want a speaker designed for a specific application, or based on some weird philosophy about the limitations of drivers from the past. Nor does it matter what the competition is doing, or what marketing label gets placed on a product. The physics are a constant. Yes, by all means keep the cool marketing stories and emphasis on heritage, but at least be authentic about it.

 

Btw, there's a reason the "evil" consumer stuff focuses on what they do today. Achieving those goals with greater fidelity is what high-fi is all about - not arrogantly dismissing it.

 

Btw, my intentions here are to provide some honest feedback. Not trying to dig anything through the mud. Quite frankly, I've realized the design targets here aren't going to emulate the performance of the K48 in a similar application. I bring it up because it will disappoint a lot of my peers that I think fall into this target market. Not everyone listens to old jazz on vinyl. Klipsch hasn't released it yet so there's still time. The thing is, my peers haven't drunk the Klipsch koolaid...

[DrWho]

14 hours ago, Chief bonehead said:

The mumps?  Well, The consumer side and commercial side are different these days when it comes to horn design.  As far as being voiced like the 396 , don't know. I think I vaguely remember what the klipsch sound is....

Perhaps the physics are different over there in Indy? 

[SiliconTi]

OOOOO! I love the looks of the Amp.

[Jainbaby]

1 hour ago, DrWho said:

Speed and frequency response are the same thing. Why can't we just use normal terms? I could be shortsighted here, but you can't talk about mass outside motive force and cone stiffness. High excursion designs exist with high frequency extension and equally stiff diaphragms. And physics dictates that low displacement = no bass. Voicecoil magazine is often publishing exciting Klippel results.

 

The legacy of PWK was engineering driven designs. We don't want a speaker designed for a specific application, or based on some weird philosophy about the limitations of drivers from the past. Nor does it matter what the competition is doing, or what marketing label gets placed on a product. The physics are a constant. Yes, by all means keep the cool marketing stories and emphasis on heritage, but at least be authentic about it.

 

Btw, there's a reason the "evil" consumer stuff focuses on what they do today. Achieving those goals with greater fidelity is what high-fi is all about - not arrogantly dismissing it.

 

Btw, my intentions here are to provide some honest feedback. Not trying to dig anything through the mud. Quite frankly, I've realized the design targets here aren't going to emulate the performance of the K48 in a similar application. I bring it up because it will disappoint a lot of my peers that I think fall into this target market. Not everyone listens to old jazz on vinyl. Klipsch hasn't released it yet so there's still time. The thing is, my peers haven't drunk the Klipsch koolaid...

 

I'm just going to agree to disagree with you.  Have you not heard the gobs of today's speakers that have bass that sounds like a car stereo?  It's just my opinion but too many of today's speakers sacrifice midrange for extended bass.  

 

When you say speed and frequency response are the same thing, I'm not sure you are catching what I'm talking about.  I am talking about the speed in which a driver can go from rest to excursion and back to rest.  If you've seen those massive 15" woofers people use these days they have massive excursion, long voice coil and wide thick surrounds...that's a combination for a slow woofer and one which cannot do for example 800 or 1000 cycles.  Most of these woofers are running from say 200 (probably less hz and down).  That's the opposite of what we are after with this speaker. On the Fifteens the 15" woofer extends and crosses over much higher than most of today's speakers...back to the speed and low mass.  To get to a higher crossover point effectively you need a low mass cone (when using a large diameter cone).

 

I have a very specific idea in mind for these speakers and have from the first moment I explained them to my team.  I can see and hear it before they were made.  Reserve your judgement until you hear them, which you should be able to do (hopefully) in Hope in April.  If you don't like them, we make some absolutely amazing speakers you can buy from our heritage line or a pair of RF7. 

 

I've been disagreeing with people in these walls since I started, but if I listened to the everyone we might still be making plastic Bluetooth speakers in colors!  I'm proud of what my team is doing and feel I'm pushing in the right direction for the future of our company.  

 

Here's my guess...you and I actually want the same thing out of this speaker...wait till you hear them.  

 

I told you I'm the minority...I'm not 100 percent sold we have been on a linear evolution with audio.  Good sound is not a recent occurrence.

 

Here is a video to watch-it really starts when they change records (watch it until the end-there is something the person filming says that might make you question your ideas about sound reproduction).  I have heard a number of these western electric demos and until you have heard one, you really have to reserve judgement.  I heard the WE757 through reel to reel at CES a few years ago and literally had tears.  I grew up in South Philly so I'm not a very sensitive guy, the emotion from that demo was unreal.  even on youtube in my mind this sounds "right" And it uses drivers from the 20's and 30's!  And there is BASS!

 

 

 

[Jainbaby]

13 minutes ago, SiliconTi said:

OOOOO! I love the looks of the Amp.

 

Thanks, not shy in telling you my inspiration for that amp came from 1970's Luxman.  There was something so mechanical about 1970's Luxman.  You should have saw me explaining to my designer and electonic engineer...I want the switch that goes "Kerchunk" when you flip it.  LOL that was a funny day!  

[Jainbaby]

1 hour ago, DrWho said:

Speed and frequency response are the same thing. Why can't we just use normal terms? I could be shortsighted here, but you can't talk about mass outside motive force and cone stiffness. High excursion designs exist with high frequency extension and equally stiff diaphragms. And physics dictates that low displacement = no bass. Voicecoil magazine is often publishing exciting Klippel results.

 

The legacy of PWK was engineering driven designs. We don't want a speaker designed for a specific application, or based on some weird philosophy about the limitations of drivers from the past. Nor does it matter what the competition is doing, or what marketing label gets placed on a product. The physics are a constant. Yes, by all means keep the cool marketing stories and emphasis on heritage, but at least be authentic about it.

 

Btw, there's a reason the "evil" consumer stuff focuses on what they do today. Achieving those goals with greater fidelity is what high-fi is all about - not arrogantly dismissing it.

 

Btw, my intentions here are to provide some honest feedback. Not trying to dig anything through the mud. Quite frankly, I've realized the design targets here aren't going to emulate the performance of the K48 in a similar application. I bring it up because it will disappoint a lot of my peers that I think fall into this target market. Not everyone listens to old jazz on vinyl. Klipsch hasn't released it yet so there's still time. The thing is, my peers haven't drunk the Klipsch koolaid...

 

Wait a minute, did you just call me inauthentic and assume I only listen to Jazz on vinyl in the same post?  Wow-that's a bit harsh.  I listen to jazz on vinyl and on Tidal!  LOL

 

There is nothing inauthentic about having extremely clear vision of what you want to produce and not letting others sway you into "dulling" the vision.  When you design by consensus products become boring.  The hard lines get softened, corners rounded, materials swapped for less expensive options to save money.  Take a look at the new stuff me and my team have created, I hit resistance all the way through the process...but we believe the end product is magnificent.  Could be wrong but we are crazy proud.  The response to the new stuff seems to be resounding with an even larger audience than we planned.  

 

My music tastes varies from Rage, Nirvana, Ben Harper, Chili Peppers, Motown, jazz (love Art Blakey and Chet Baker), rap and just about everything (well maybe not too much country...) and the Fifteens will sound great on all of it!    I was just spinning Fugees on the SIXES right before I typed this...

[SiliconTi]

18 minutes ago, Jainbaby said:

design by consensus

 

Perhaps the best way to ruin a design/product.

[Jainbaby]

5 minutes ago, SiliconTi said:

 

Perhaps the best way to ruin a design/product.

 

Exactly!!!!!!  

[DrWho]

" I am talking about the speed in which a driver can go from rest to excursion and back to rest. "

 

*sigh* That's also called frequency response. Honest. 

[richieb]

So is it a stretch to assume in order to replicate as near as possible true "live, you're there" sound Klipsch engineers follow the early concepts from WE with large horn formats such as the 402? And also to adhere to efficiency standards PWK built his reputation?

[mike stehr]

 

Looks like Joe wants to crack someone in the head with that big yellow crescent wrench.

[Jainbaby]

28 minutes ago, mike stehr said:

 

Looks like Joe wants to crack someone in the head with that big yellow crescent wrench.

 

Lol!  Joe's like...you will listen to horns and tubes or die!

[Travis In Austin]

3 hours ago, DrWho said:

Speed and frequency response are the same thing. Why can't we just use normal terms? I could be shortsighted here, but you can't talk about mass outside motive force and cone stiffness. High excursion designs exist with high frequency extension and equally stiff diaphragms. And physics dictates that low displacement = no bass. Voicecoil magazine is often publishing exciting Klippel results.

 

The legacy of PWK was engineering driven designs. We don't want a speaker designed for a specific application, or based on some weird philosophy about the limitations of drivers from the past. Nor does it matter what the competition is doing, or what marketing label gets placed on a product. The physics are a constant. Yes, by all means keep the cool marketing stories and emphasis on heritage, but at least be authentic about it.

 

Btw, there's a reason the "evil" consumer stuff focuses on what they do today. Achieving those goals with greater fidelity is what high-fi is all about - not arrogantly dismissing it.

 

Btw, my intentions here are to provide some honest feedback. Not trying to dig anything through the mud. Quite frankly, I've realized the design targets here aren't going to emulate the performance of the K48 in a similar application. I bring it up because it will disappoint a lot of my peers that I think fall into this target market. Not everyone listens to old jazz on vinyl. Klipsch hasn't released it yet so there's still time. The thing is, my peers haven't drunk the Klipsch koolaid...

Mike:

 

You are an engineer at a top tier microphone and headphone company that was an innovator in microphone technology going back  to  what, the 1930s?  Are you suggesting they design and engineer a product just because they can, without giving any consideration to the target market is willing to pay, the competition, etc?  I don't think Chris, the president  and ceo of the company you work for would ever do that.  I don't think KGI needs any help with designing  speakers, you and I know they have some of the best in the business.  What they, along with every other viable consumer electronic company in existence, need to do is find out what consumers want, create innovative products that satisfy that want with a quality that fits in with their brand.  All at a competitive price.  Your company has gone to manufacturing in Mexico, and more recently in China, presumably to have competitive pricing, while retaining quality.

 

I would think you would want to start with what is the size of the high fi speaker market.  CEA has those figures, KGI is intimately involved with CEA.  Than I would think you would want to know what the market is for wireless speakers (KGI is on industry groups working on standards for this  as well), what the size of  the market is for active, powered plug and play speakers.  The limited data I have seen (and it is very limited because you typically have to pay for the good, accurate data), is that the wireless/powered speaker market last year was a multiple of at least 10x of what the hi fi speaker market was.  They are obviously going retro in the powered speaker market, a niche that Steve and his team have identified is large enough to pursue the product to this stage, and at a price they can be competitive with.  That's how companies like KGI and yours have remained around for so long.  They make a quality product, and a competitive price, for a market that WANTS that product. 

 

Want you need to do Mike is figure out a way to make a limited edition of the Shure V15 that sounds the same as the original and at a competitive price. Figure out a way to replace the rare metals with more available materials and you could even "bring it back" like the Forte.  Then you get your marketing people to figure out a way to Co-op that with KGI for a turntable/V15 cartridge combo with 15s.  I think you guys could sell a boatload of them together.

 

Travis