ces *cough* CES 2017 *cough*

[Travis In Austin]

3 hours ago, Jainbaby said:

 

I'm just going to agree to disagree with you.  Have you not heard the gobs of today's speakers that have bass that sounds like a car stereo?  It's just my opinion but too many of today's speakers sacrifice midrange for extended bass.  

 

When you say speed and frequency response are the same thing, I'm not sure you are catching what I'm talking about.  I am talking about the speed in which a driver can go from rest to excursion and back to rest.  If you've seen those massive 15" woofers people use these days they have massive excursion, long voice coil and wide thick surrounds...that's a combination for a slow woofer and one which cannot do for example 800 or 1000 cycles.  Most of these woofers are running from say 200 (probably less hz and down).  That's the opposite of what we are after with this speaker. On the Fifteens the 15" woofer extends and crosses over much higher than most of today's speakers...back to the speed and low mass.  To get to a higher crossover point effectively you need a low mass cone (when using a large diameter cone).

 

I have a very specific idea in mind for these speakers and have from the first moment I explained them to my team.  I can see and hear it before they were made.  Reserve your judgement until you hear them, which you should be able to do (hopefully) in Hope in April.  If you don't like them, we make some absolutely amazing speakers you can buy from our heritage line or a pair of RF7. 

 

I've been disagreeing with people in these walls since I started, but if I listened to the everyone we might still be making plastic Bluetooth speakers in colors!  I'm proud of what my team is doing and feel I'm pushing in the right direction for the future of our company.  

 

Here's my guess...you and I actually want the same thing out of this speaker...wait till you hear them.  

 

I told you I'm the minority...I'm not 100 percent sold we have been on a linear evolution with audio.  Good sound is not a recent occurrence.

 

Here is a video to watch-it really starts when they change records (watch it until the end-there is something the person filming says that might make you question your ideas about sound reproduction).  I have heard a number of these western electric demos and until you have heard one, you really have to reserve judgement.  I heard the WE757 through reel to reel at CES a few years ago and literally had tears.  I grew up in South Philly so I'm not a very sensitive guy, the emotion from that demo was unreal.  even on youtube in my mind this sounds "right" And it uses drivers from the 20's and 30's!  And there is BASS!

 

 

 

Wish we had know you were in the market for big WE horns.  The Klipsch Museum of Audio History just sold a couple of pair for KGI.  They had your name written all over them.  The buyer, who is probably has the world's largest collection of WE horns and drivers, kept talking about the sound, and it is the how he just loves the sound, but that many, many people do not.  He said people say, "no punch, no punch." 

 

Paul Klipsch was obviously intrigued with them, to the point where he collected some.

[Jainbaby]

22 minutes ago, dwilawyer said:

Wish we had know you were in the market for big WE horns.  The Klipsch Museum of Audio History just sold a couple of pair for KGI.  They had your name written all over them.  The buyer, who is probably has the world's largest collection of WE horns and drivers, kept talking about the sound, and it is the how he just loves the sound, but that many, many people do not.  He said people say, "no punch, no punch." 

 

Paul Klipsch was obviously intrigued with them, to the point where he collected some.

 

I saw the list and really wanted a few things, but I was told the buyer wanted the whole lot...especially everything WE.

 

We have a few early PWK speakers and designs in the Indy office that have WE, I'm not certain but I think his earliest designs use WE...I keep thinking if I "borrow" some of the WE drivers, no one will notice...lol. 

 

 

In fact, directly outside my office door there is a big horn that has a WE 555 mounted to it...just teasing me everytime I walk past 

[Grizzog]

I really don't see the issue with @Jainbaby's comments about tone and speed. These make perfect sense. Is it an issue with terminology?

 

For those of us with Heritage/extended heritage speakers, we know full well the benefits of a large low-mass cone.

 

The Altec 19 uses a very low-mass cone crossed at 1200hz and is absolutely fantastic.

 

PWK said the midrange is where we live. Sounds to me this is what The Fifteens are aiming for - they don't need to plumb the depths of the earth or reach past the upper limits of hearing. Tone is getting at the important pieces of the music and making it sound real. 

 

I, for one, am extremely excited for The Fifteens and the Forte III. The Forte brings back the original spirit/sound of Klipsch, and The Fifteens go for that as well as bringing the old world charm with today's tech. 

 

Count me as one that is extremely pleased with the direction of multiple portions of Klipsch. 

[Jainbaby]

1 hour ago, Grizzog said:

I really don't see the issue with @Jainbaby's comments about tone and speed. These make perfect sense. Is it an issue with terminology?

 

For those of us with Heritage/extended heritage speakers, we know full well the benefits of a large low-mass cone.

 

The Altec 19 uses a very low-mass cone crossed at 1200hz and is absolutely fantastic.

 

PWK said the midrange is where we live. Sounds to me this is what The Fifteens are aiming for - they don't need to plumb the depths of the earth or reach past the upper limits of hearing. Tone is getting at the important pieces of the music and making it sound real. 

 

I, for one, am extremely excited for The Fifteens and the Forte III. The Forte brings back the original spirit/sound of Klipsch, and The Fifteens go for that as well as bringing the old world charm with today's tech. 

 

Count me as one that is extremely pleased with the direction of multiple portions of Klipsch. 

 

Thanks, seems you completely get what I was trying to explain.  I had a set of 19's, great speakers!  I still have a pair of Valencia 846A and a Frankenpair of Voice of Theatre A7's (Frankenstein because I use them to mess around with stuff).  

 

I probably shouldn't write this here, but some people already know that my intention is to build the Fifteens in HOPE!  It will raise the price but I really want to pull this off.  We have sent prototypes to Hope and are awaiting a quote.  Would you guys pay more if they were built in Hope?

[Hasty]

I dont think it hurts to be able to say they're made in the USA.  

 

Most people ASSUME a big floorstanding speaker from Klipsch is made in America.

 

I think there's a limit to the price people will pay though.  

 

 

[Travis In Austin]

1 hour ago, Jainbaby said:

 

Thanks, seems you completely get what I was trying to explain.  I had a set of 19's, great speakers!  I still have a pair of Valencia 846A and a Frankenpair of Voice of Theatre A7's (Frankenstein because I use them to mess around with stuff).  

 

I probably shouldn't write this here, but some people already know that my intention is to build the Fifteens in HOPE!  It will raise the price but I really want to pull this off.  We have sent prototypes to Hope and are awaiting a quote.  Would you guys pay more if they were built in Hope?

 

Of course they/we would.

 

A Yeti cooler, not so much (different story).

 

That would be of historical proportions. 

 

Thanks for letting a little "bag out of the cat" Steve.  Nice to see the attempt, regardless of how it works out.

 

Just don't call 'em or put "Heritage" in the name or they may string you up for the Pilgrimage. 

[Grizzog]

That's difficult to say. Since prices were already shown at CES, a significant increase may be a tough sell. At $3k, the fifteens sound like they are in a sweet spot. At $4k (just a guess) then you've got to think a bit harder. $3k and made in USA would be awesome. $3,500 I'd say is still good. But at that price it is right next to the forte and close to the Cornwall.

 

I guess it is a question of how much more...


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[Jainbaby]

Ok.  Thanks for the feedback.  We don't know yet exactly how much the price will change if we build them in Hope, hoping we can make this work.  

 

 

[SiliconTi]

1 hour ago, Jainbaby said:

that my intention is to build the Fifteens in HOPE

 

Oh, I assumed they were. Kinda disappointed if they are not.

[vondy]

[quote post="2109291" timestamp="1485657555" name="dwilawyer" userid="

A Yeti cooler, not so much (different story).




I have a Yeti. One of the best damn things I've ever owned. Now it was a Christmas gift and my wife had a 20% off coupon for it so that justified the purchase for how we use it. They are definitely a redneck status symbol but they are worth every penny if you use them.

I'd pay more for a quality product built in Hope. But there is a limit and it really depends on how good it is. You'd have a hard time convincing people here to pay the same or more than a Forte III. It would really have to shine. A Forte is a lifetime product as well, the 15 has amps to go out so that might turn off some of us more hardcore guys.

I do love the design. My wife even said she thought they looked great, even better with the grills off! I was shocked cus she usually could care less but she does love vintage furniture, etc., and you got the looks right.

[Chief bonehead]

12 hours ago, Jainbaby said:

 

Im pretty certain you misread my responses.  No where did I say the Fifteens would have no bass.  They have plenty of bass (so far, early tuning still).  

 

A few things:  I said my nirvana was SET, High Sensitivity speakers etc.  and that TONE I love. Never said that was what the Fifteens would sound like.

 

On the Fifteens my goal was to use a low mass cone with limited excursion.  And I said it wasn't about the ultimate bass response (you can watch some videos on YouTube and hear me say the same thing).  All I mean by this is that we didn't use some crazy excursion large voice coil blah blah blah nonsense 15" driver.  Those types of drivers are very heavy, very slow and require gobs of power.  We want speed.

 

The reason I said they will sound like no other speaker on the market (and I'm talking retail market, not pro), is because most of the consumer stuff I see today focuses on exactly what I described above...3" voice coil, long excursion blah blah blah.  I'm with all of you that reproduction is the key, so we may sacrifice some ultimate bass excursion for dynamics, scale, speed and ultimately in my mind something closer to a speaker from that time before exaggerated bass response and frequency response up to and beyond 20K became design objectives.  

Hmmmm. The forte III uses a. 3" voice coil, blah blah blah.....

[Chief bonehead]

9 hours ago, Jainbaby said:

 

I'm just going to agree to disagree with you.  Have you not heard the gobs of today's speakers that have bass that sounds like a car stereo?  It's just my opinion but too many of today's speakers sacrifice midrange for extended bass.  

 

When you say speed and frequency response are the same thing, I'm not sure you are catching what I'm talking about.  I am talking about the speed in which a driver can go from rest to excursion and back to rest.  If you've seen those massive 15" woofers people use these days they have massive excursion, long voice coil and wide thick surrounds...that's a combination for a slow woofer and one which cannot do for example 800 or 1000 cycles.  Most of these woofers are running from say 200 (probably less hz and down).  That's the opposite of what we are after with this speaker. On the Fifteens the 15" woofer extends and crosses over much higher than most of today's speakers...back to the speed and low mass.  To get to a higher crossover point effectively you need a low mass cone (when using a large diameter cone).

 

I have a very specific idea in mind for these speakers and have from the first moment I explained them to my team.  I can see and hear it before they were made.  Reserve your judgement until you hear them, which you should be able to do (hopefully) in Hope in April.  If you don't like them, we make some absolutely amazing speakers you can buy from our heritage line or a pair of RF7. 

 

I've been disagreeing with people in these walls since I started, but if I listened to the everyone we might still be making plastic Bluetooth speakers in colors!  I'm proud of what my team is doing and feel I'm pushing in the right direction for the future of our company.  

 

Here's my guess...you and I actually want the same thing out of this speaker...wait till you hear them.  

 

I told you I'm the minority...I'm not 100 percent sold we have been on a linear evolution with audio.  Good sound is not a recent occurrence.

 

Here is a video to watch-it really starts when they change records (watch it until the end-there is something the person filming says that might make you question your ideas about sound reproduction).  I have heard a number of these western electric demos and until you have heard one, you really have to reserve judgement.  I heard the WE757 through reel to reel at CES a few years ago and literally had tears.  I grew up in South Philly so I'm not a very sensitive guy, the emotion from that demo was unreal.  even on youtube in my mind this sounds "right" And it uses drivers from the 20's and 30's!  And there is BASS!

 

 

 

After reading what you have written I think I am going to be one of "those" that will disagree with you. Paul's principles have done well for this company and as long as I am still with klipsch, I will continue down that path. At least in the commercial side......

[Chief bonehead]

10 hours ago, DrWho said:

Speed and frequency response are the same thing. Why can't we just use normal terms? I could be shortsighted here, but you can't talk about mass outside motive force and cone stiffness. High excursion designs exist with high frequency extension and equally stiff diaphragms. And physics dictates that low displacement = no bass. Voicecoil magazine is often publishing exciting Klippel results.

 

The legacy of PWK was engineering driven designs. We don't want a speaker designed for a specific application, or based on some weird philosophy about the limitations of drivers from the past. Nor does it matter what the competition is doing, or what marketing label gets placed on a product. The physics are a constant. Yes, by all means keep the cool marketing stories and emphasis on heritage, but at least be authentic about it.

 

Btw, there's a reason the "evil" consumer stuff focuses on what they do today. Achieving those goals with greater fidelity is what high-fi is all about - not arrogantly dismissing it.

 

Btw, my intentions here are to provide some honest feedback. Not trying to dig anything through the mud. Quite frankly, I've realized the design targets here aren't going to emulate the performance of the K48 in a similar application. I bring it up because it will disappoint a lot of my peers that I think fall into this target market. Not everyone listens to old jazz on vinyl. Klipsch hasn't released it yet so there's still time. The thing is, my peers haven't drunk the Klipsch koolaid...

Correct grasshopper.  Physics are a constant. 

[Travis In Austin]

1 hour ago, vondy said:

[quote post="2109291" timestamp="1485657555" name="dwilawyer" userid="

A Yeti cooler, not so much (different story).




I have a Yeti. One of the best damn things I've ever owned. Now it was a Christmas gift and my wife had a 20% off coupon for it so that justified the purchase for how we use it. They are definitely a redneck status symbol but they are worth every penny if you use them.

I'd pay more for a quality product built in Hope. But there is a limit and it really depends on how good it is. You'd have a hard time convincing people here to pay the same or more than a Forte III. It would really have to shine. A Forte is a lifetime product as well, the 15 has amps to go out so that might turn off some of us more hardcore guys.

I do love the design. My wife even said she thought they looked great, even better with the grills off! I was shocked cus she usually could care less but she does love vintage furniture, etc., and you got the looks right.

I agree with you  completely.   Apparently you didn't see the RTIC cooler thread recently in the lounge section.  There are some that don't agree with us that buying Made in USA is worth a premium.  They believe that if quality is about equal, price becomes a major factor.

[Jainbaby]

1 hour ago, Chief bonehead said:

After reading what you have written I think I am going to be one of "those" that will disagree with you. Paul's principles have done well for this company and as long as I am still with klipsch, I will continue down that path. At least in the commercial side......

 

COOL.  thats what makes this hobby Interesting...one person might want 200 watts and another wants 2.5 watts (45 tube), doesn't mean either is wrong...vanilla or chocolate.  I'll take pistachio!

 

 

[Chief bonehead]

Great. I'll take PWK. 

[mike stehr]

The Germans lost the war...

 

 

[SiliconTi]

Why does Made In USA have to be thought of as so much more expensive? Shiit is getting away with. Granted, their products are less labor intensive than a speaker cabinet.

 

I wonder if it is simply not wanting to give up on profit margin, which (and I am assuming here) is very good on high end speakers. Give a couple % to make them in Hope.

 

Yes, yes, I know it is not that easy, but could it be?

 

Just random thoughts.

[Jainbaby]

1 hour ago, SiliconTi said:

Why does Made In USA have to be thought of as so much more expensive? Shiit is getting away with. Granted, their products are less labor intensive than a speaker cabinet.

 

I wonder if it is simply not wanting to give up on profit margin, which (and I am assuming here) is very good on high end speakers. Give a couple % to make them in Hope.

 

Yes, yes, I know it is not that easy, but could it be?

 

Just random thoughts.

 

I truly wish it was that simple.  The cabinet construction is labor intensive and as you can imagine the cost to assemble the cabinet, fit the electronics and ultimately do reliability testing is more expensive in the US than China.  We initially created 3 pairs of prototypes and one pair was created at our wood shop in Indy.

 

We started the project thinking China but everyone was so excited we kept bothering Jay in the wood shop (ok I might have bothered him the most), and during that process we talked to Jay and Kerry about construction, both felt they could be built in Hope without need for any new machinery or additional work space (still hoping this is true).  Next week we I should be able to update the thread with what we have accomplished.  

 

 

[Travis In Austin]

They look beautiful.  

 

It will be nice to give those a listen in Hope if that ends up working out.