ces *cough* CES 2017 *cough*

[Mallette]

Wow.  Haven't been here in a while and have missed some really great stuff!  However, as I am not qualified to comment on these august and arcane discussions what I'd suggest is let's review.  The attach 8 Card was handed to me personally by PWK.  In our conversion at that time he said that those 8 cardinal points weren't his.  They were God's and he'd just written them down. 

 

Since I visited with him I have judged every speaker I have ever heard on the extent to which it differs from these rules.  Of the Klipsch line, only the Klipschorn meets all of them to the extent technology allows.  Each of the other models in the Heritage line deviates right down to Heresy...the first that deviated enough to the point that I believe it's as far has the man could go in distance from the 8 cardinal points.  To my knowledge, the Kg2 was the first to go a bit farther...but did so by incorporating as many of them as possible consistent with the application and target market for the design.  And in that and PWK's willingness to endorse them and the others that followed lies the key to post-PWK Klipsch success:  Knowing precisely which of the 8 cardinal points the designer is violating and why...and ensuring that the deviation is absolutely no more than required for the application.  If a new engineer deviated too far without good reason, I'd send him home with a copy and tell him to report back to work when he was able to recite it verbatim and apply. 

 

If I were a manager of engineering at Klipsch a very large copy of the 8 Cardinal Points would hang in the room where designs are mooted.  The very first hurdle would be answering the question "PRECISELY which of the 8 cardinal points are we violating here and why?"  As long as that happens Klipsch will be successful.  To the extent it doesn't, Klipsch risks just becoming another "Ho hum, another major breakthrough..." company. 

 

Dave
 

PWK8Cardsml.pdf

[Ski Bum]

The only part of the 8 Cardinal rules I think has not stood the test of time is number 5, avoidance of cavities.  He makes some broad generalizations, based on one tiny excerpt from a source from 1953.  That all clearly has to do with modal behavior and Allison effect, all of which was elucidated at later dates than either the referenced Snow book or the publishing of the 8 Cardinal rules in 1961.  I don't think it's coincidental that the early versions of the Cornwall had the woofs mounted low on the baffle, an approach which minimizes the Allison effect, applied a decade before that acoustic behavior even had a name.

 

Today we have bass management and arrayed subs, able to address bass linearity and modal behavior in superior fashion than simply "avoiding cavities".

 

The rest of the Cardinal rules seem as true today as they ever were.

 

I'm confident that the Fifteens can meet at least several of the requirements.  If they actually do remains to be seen.  I just hope Roy doesn't get so cranky at his corporate peers that they don't send him a pair.

[Mallette]

1 hour ago, Ski Bum said:

I just hope Roy doesn't get so cranky at his corporate peers that they don't send him a pair.

Roy already has a pair.  Oh...you meant speakers. 

Dave

[Travis In Austin]

2 hours ago, Mallette said:

Wow.  Haven't been here in a while and have missed some really great stuff!  However, as I am not qualified to comment on these august and arcane discussions what I'd suggest is let's review.  The attach 8 Card was handed to me personally by PWK.  In our conversion at that time he said that those 8 cardinal points weren't his.  They were God's and he'd just written them down. 

 

Since I visited with him I have judged every speaker I have ever heard on the extent to which it differs from these rules.  Of the Klipsch line, only the Klipschorn meets all of them to the extent technology allows.  Each of the other models in the Heritage line deviates right down to Heresy...the first that deviated enough to the point that I believe it's as far has the man could go in distance from the 8 cardinal points.  To my knowledge, the Kg2 was the first to go a bit farther...but did so by incorporating as many of them as possible consistent with the application and target market for the design.  And in that and PWK's willingness to endorse them and the others that followed lies the key to post-PWK Klipsch success:  Knowing precisely which of the 8 cardinal points the designer is violating and why...and ensuring that the deviation is absolutely no more than required for the application.  If a new engineer deviated too far without good reason, I'd send him home with a copy and tell him to report back to work when he was able to recite it verbatim and apply. 

 

If I were a manager of engineering at Klipsch a very large copy of the 8 Cardinal Points would hang in the room where designs are mooted.  The very first hurdle would be answering the question "PRECISELY which of the 8 cardinal points are we violating here and why?"  As long as that happens Klipsch will be successful.  To the extent it doesn't, Klipsch risks just becoming another "Ho hum, another major breakthrough..." company. 

 

Dave
 

PWK8Cardsml.pdf

Always loved that article.

 

It was interesting to re-read this quote:

 

 

Seems to me PWK was interested in a "15" with a 6.7 foot cubic foot box and horns.  Was he open to the possibilities of this?  He mentions "desirable size."  Was he acknowledging that his speakers, while of better fidelity, were of undesirable size?  What is the sq footage of a cornwall?  A Forte?

 

So in this room where designs are mooted, would headphone and earphones be dead?  Or is that a different room because the 8 Cardinal Rules don't apply to earphones (although the "toe in" rule would seem to be fully utilized.

 

I don't know what you call the product category that the One, Three, and Stadium fall into, but do you simply choose not to enter into that category because you know you can't comply with the Cardinal rules?  Even if it a market many times the size of floor standing loudspeakers and  projected to only get bigger.

 

The AR3A had a market share of 1/3 of all loud speakers in the mid-60s.  No speaker has had that since.  It may have been of inferior audio quality, for a number of reasons, but it was what the market wanted.  Edgar published his speaker specs and data starting in late 50s.  That product ran it's course, they tried to diversify into turntables, that turned out to  be the wrong thing to diversify into if you want to remain viable.  Swallowed by Teledyne, swallowed by Voxx. 

 

The market that appreciates the 8 Cardinal Rules, better quality sound, is shrinking.  You have to figure a way of getting younger people turned on to the personal, smaller products, have superior sound and quality, get them brand loyal, and move them up as their incomes rise, along with living area sq. footage.

 

Don't know what exact markets size of the different products are, and magazine subscriptions are not the whole market, but give some of starting point, here are three at random:

 

Bass Master  500,217

 

17 Magazine  Glamour magazine targeted for girls aged 10 to 21  1.5 Million

 

Stereophile  70,000

 

These speakers were on display at the Venetian  for CES 2017, look kind of similar to the 15, but completely different concept.  I bet the 15s will sound better than these, by a wide margin.

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Mallette]

10 minutes ago, dwilawyer said:

Was he acknowledging that his speakers, while of better fidelity, were of undesirable size?

Yes, he was.  OTOH, the Klipschorn simply could not be made smaller and still provide his personal minimum performance.  C1, low note on a pipe organ with 16 foot pipes at 32Hz.  He told me himself that the range of the Klipschorn accounted for 98% of all recorded music and that was his target.  After that, decisions are arbitrary.  Heresy is all a chamber music lover will ever need.  Cornwall can satisfy yer basic rockaholic.  But the design aims of the 8 Card are clear, concise, and apply to any speaker if you change the design aims of the specific speaker. 

 

Dave

[minermark]

5 minutes ago, Mallette said:

Yes, he was.  OTOH, the Klipschorn simply could not be made smaller and still provide his personal minimum performance.  C1, low note on a pipe organ with 16 foot pipes at 32Hz.  He told me himself that the range of the Klipschorn accounted for 98% of all recorded music and that was his target.  After that, decisions are arbitrary.  Heresy is all a chamber music lover will ever need.  Cornwall can satisfy yer basic rockaholic.  But the design aims of the 8 Card are clear, concise, and apply to any speaker if you change the design aims of the specific speaker. 

 

Dave

Damm man, quit talkin pipes, makes me wish to crank up some Anna H.

[Mallette]

20 minutes ago, minermark said:

Damm man, quit talkin pipes, makes me wish to crank up some Anna H.

Azzhole. 

Dave

[minermark]

1 minute ago, Mallette said:

Azzhole. 

Dave

https://youtu.be/46SWrxVgElo....................Crank it.

[Mallette]

7 minutes ago, minermark said:

https://youtu.be/46SWrxVgElo....................Crank it.

Wow.  Thanks for the link.  Read the comments as well.  Read the comments.  One really stuck out:

"For me, there is nothing "spiritual" at all in a constant C-F monotonous progression with unvaried "melodic" passages and some vocals on top. I wonder why people don't get at least bored (at most annoyed) by the complete lack of innovation and variety. It's probably "proper" advertising. The church background and low lights may contribute to the manipulation as well." 

 

Didn't' reply, but I can think of quite a few great works by the like of Bach and others that are little more than "...a constant C-F monotonous progression with unvaried "melodic" passages..." which work for me. 

Whether this is one or not is for a century to decide.  But I LIKE it! 

 

Dave

[Ski Bum]

1 hour ago, dwilawyer said:

It was interesting to re-read this quote:

 

Isn't this what has come to be called a "Quasi-Sealed System"?  

[Travis In Austin]

11 minutes ago, Mallette said:

Yes, he was.  OTOH, the Klipschorn simply could not be made smaller and still provide his personal minimum performance.  C1, low note on a pipe organ with 16 foot pipes at 32Hz.  He told me himself that the range of the Klipschorn accounted for 98% of all recorded music and that was his target.  After that, decisions are arbitrary.  Heresy is all a chamber music lover will ever need.  Cornwall can satisfy yer basic rockaholic.  But the design aims of the 8 Card are clear, concise, and apply to any speaker if you change the design aims of the specific speaker. 

 

Dave

Then he started working on the Jubilee with Roy

 

For design aims, shouldn't it be the five "Cardinal Points"?  Six, seven and eight don't seem to have anything to do with speaker design.  No 8, toe in, don't seem to apply to Khorns at all.  Widely spaced, is a course going to be limited by the room they are going to go in.  Seem some funny posts in hear over the years about people needing to buy new houses to get the full potential of their speakers. 

 

Number of speakers, obviously was going to his Heresy (or Belle) in the middle.  It is a Cardinal Point, but I wonder who many of us in here are running stereo systems with a center channel, summed as Paul designed it.  I wonder what Paul thought about 5.1, and beyond.

[Mallette]

Wonder all you want, Travis. All 8 are essential to me and as relevant now as when he wrote them.  Followed, stereo reproduction will be as close as transparent can be.  Deviation leads to compromise somewhere. 

 

As to 5.1, the ".1" is needed only if you wish to get that last octave to C0 needed only by a few instruments.  Grand piano at 21, 32' organ pipes at 16.5, and synthetic stuff.  The K'horn still handles his design goal of 98 percent of what people listen to.  Getting close to 100% would have increased cost and size exponentially. 

 

As to the Jube, if it passed all 8 PWK would have had it made the basis of the line instead of the K'horn.  My impression is that while an improvement, the improvement is only audible in specific situations.  The K'horn remains in production, the Jube, for all it's great qualities, is not. 

 

Dave

[Tom Adams]

Wow……almost 1.378 hours of my life I won’t get back reading this thread.  In the almost 40 years of “conversing” via the internet, the one thing that can be counted on is the hijack post followed by getting off into the weeds followed by the “my nose is bigger than yours” argument.  Alas (sigh) this thread has followed suit.

I’m beginning to think that maybe I should apply for a government grant to study this trait that compels folks to go down this road.  Is it a need to feel relevant?  To try and impress folks?  I dunno….but it sure seems that internet chat rooms/forums/whatever are fraught with this phenomenon.  At a certain point in internet history, some enterprising programmer decided to devise a mechanism for this tendency of forum posters and included the “personal message” option in the forum software program.  It’s just my speculation, but I think the programmer’s intent was to have folks that wanted to engage in this type of ***-for-tat, my nose is bigger than yours bickering to take it off-line, as it were.

So let’s see if we can make some sense of this thread.  The OP made note of some new products that Klipsch intended to bring to market.  Reading between the lines, the OP was open to feedback.  Some relevant feedback was offered and opined.  However, at some point, these new products apparently flew in the face of some folks that have very strong opinions (that’s an understatement Tom) amd notions and whatever about what Klipsch should do/build/market/whatever.  And….true to form…..we have the hi-jack and the de-evolution of the thread.

To be sure, I am NO WHERE NEAR the level of audio knowledge of many of you here.  And – quite franky – I really don’t care.  Honestly, the posts some of you pen is quite comical.  And having been here since Dr. Who was a snotty nose starving college student, I’ve seen my share of back handed compliments and flame wars.  It’s also the reason that I (and I suspect others) just stopped coming here because of the snootiness and condescending attitude that was, and apparently still is, pervasive among some of you “Audiopiles”.  I wanna pass along this gem that I adhered to over my 40+ years of being an Engineer and manager in the aviation industry and was hung on the wall of my office so my team of 20 Engineers could always see:

It takes absolutely, positively no talent nor intellect to criticize.  The genius in in the solution.

You know…..I was always amazed and puzzled by folks that had the courage of their convictions to opine ad nauseum, but 99% of them had no courage to not just run their mouths and actually go out and DO something – kinda like being a Monday morning quarterback.  Klipsch should do this and Klipsch should do that.  Klipsch is heading in the wrong direction.  And on & on.

Here’s an idea…..if you are so dam sure you are so dam enlighted, then might I suggest you quit wasting your time here and put your time into developing a better product?  Seriously…some of you sexual intellectuals seem to have all the answers.

And with this – I bid you adieu and ask that the forum admin please have pity on me and ban me from this forum.

Tom

[dtel's wife]

4 minutes ago, Tom Adams said:

Wow……almost 1.378 hours of my life I won’t get back reading this thread.  In the almost 40 years of “conversing” via the internet, the one thing that can be counted on is the hijack post followed by getting off into the weeds followed by the “my nose is bigger than yours” argument.  Alas (sigh) this thread has followed suit.

I’m beginning to think that maybe I should apply for a government grant to study this trait that compels folks to go down this road.  Is it a need to feel relevant?  To try and impress folks?  I dunno….but it sure seems that internet chat rooms/forums/whatever are fraught with this phenomenon.  At a certain point in internet history, some enterprising programmer decided to devise a mechanism for this tendency of forum posters and included the “personal message” option in the forum software program.  It’s just my speculation, but I think the programmer’s intent was to have folks that wanted to engage in this type of ***-for-tat, my nose is bigger than yours bickering to take it off-line, as it were.

So let’s see if we can make some sense of this thread.  The OP made note of some new products that Klipsch intended to bring to market.  Reading between the lines, the OP was open to feedback.  Some relevant feedback was offered and opined.  However, at some point, these new products apparently flew in the face of some folks that have very strong opinions (that’s an understatement Tom) amd notions and whatever about what Klipsch should do/build/market/whatever.  And….true to form…..we have the hi-jack and the de-evolution of the thread.

To be sure, I am NO WHERE NEAR the level of audio knowledge of many of you here.  And – quite franky – I really don’t care.  Honestly, the posts some of you pen is quite comical.  And having been here since Dr. Who was a snotty nose starving college student, I’ve seen my share of back handed compliments and flame wars.  It’s also the reason that I (and I suspect others) just stopped coming here because of the snootiness and condescending attitude that was, and apparently still is, pervasive among some of you “Audiopiles”.  I wanna pass along this gem that I adhered to over my 40+ years of being an Engineer and manager in the aviation industry and was hung on the wall of my office so my team of 20 Engineers could always see:

It takes absolutely, positively no talent nor intellect to criticize.  The genius in in the solution.

You know…..I was always amazed and puzzled by folks that had the courage of their convictions to opine ad nauseum, but 99% of them had no courage to not just run their mouths and actually go out and DO something – kinda like being a Monday morning quarterback.  Klipsch should do this and Klipsch should do that.  Klipsch is heading in the wrong direction.  And on & on.

Here’s an idea…..if you are so dam sure you are so dam enlighted, then might I suggest you quit wasting your time here and put your time into developing a better product?  Seriously…some of you sexual intellectuals seem to have all the answers.

And with this – I bid you adieu and ask that the forum admin please have pity on me and ban me from this forum.

Tom

I hear you loud and clear. I'm often shocked by some of the responses I read on here @Tom Adams. However, it never deters me from my love of Klipsch and all that PWK accomplished. This is why dtel and I have dedicated hundreds of hours to the Klipsch Museum of Audio History. It's about the man, the myth, the legend. He would be the first one to flash the  button at some of these folks. 

[minermark]

51 minutes ago, Mallette said:

Wow.  Thanks for the link.  Read the comments as well.  Read the comments.  One really stuck out:

"For me, there is nothing "spiritual" at all in a constant C-F monotonous progression with unvaried "melodic" passages and some vocals on top. I wonder why people don't get at least bored (at most annoyed) by the complete lack of innovation and variety. It's probably "proper" advertising. The church background and low lights may contribute to the manipulation as well." 

 

Didn't' reply, but I can think of quite a few great works by the like of Bach and others that are little more than "...a constant C-F monotonous progression with unvaried "melodic" passages..." which work for me. 

Whether this is one or not is for a century to decide.  But I LIKE it! 

 

Dave

Indeed, correct, iv never cared where anything is preformed, and im thinkin the people who preformed, knew/choose the location for their reason.

I am nothing more than a Fan......altough i would marry her in an instant.

[Mallette]

1 minute ago, minermark said:

altough i would marry her in an instant.

Didn't even look at her as a woman.  Perhaps should rectify...

Dave

[Mallette]

21 minutes ago, Tom Adams said:

And with this – I bid you adieu and ask that the forum admin please have pity on me and ban me from this forum.

If you want to be banned do something clearly in violation of the TOS.  Eloquently expressing your opinion doesn't get our pity or banning.  Kudos.

Dave

[minermark]

7 minutes ago, Mallette said:

Didn't even look at her as a woman.  Perhaps should rectify...

Dave

She was blond right?

Sitting at an Epic Organ correct?

My god what link DID I POST?

[minermark]

2 minutes ago, Mallette said:

If you want to be banned do something clearly in violation of the TOS.  Eloquently expressing your opinion doesn't get our pity or banning.  Kudos.

Dave

Thank god, i thought you were talkin to me

[minermark]

Im thinkin i'll just go crawl back into my Coffee tread and no one will get hurt..........