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Joe Bentes

Crossover, Large/Small and more...

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Hi there,

 

Not sure if this subject has been covered, but trying to go through 1000+ topics and nothing's coming up on search.

 

I have the following for my setup: 

 

RF-82 (Front) - 33Hz - 23kHz +/- 3dB

RC-52 (Centre) - 67Hz - 23kHz +/- 3dB

RS-52 (Surround) - 62Hz - 23kHz +/- 3dB

Klipsch SW110 sub.

Yamaha RXV-675 for my receiver.

 

I've been trying to figure out the right crossover frequency for my setup and I'm just a little lost/confused.  The THX guide recommends 80Hz as the general setting if you have a receiver that allows you to only setup Large/Small speakers, however... from what I've been reading and if I understand it correctly, my fronts are rated for 40Hz, my Centre and Surround are rated for 80Hz (since I can't select 70, 80 is next).  I've also read that a better choice is to set to set the front speakers as Large instead of Small and do LFE + Front but at 90HZ.  This would ensure that all speakers are pushing out just the right frequencies and all the good stuff goes to the front and sub for clean sound.  It looks like because of the wide gap of the front and all other speakers that a receiver that lets you configure the crossover individually would work best, but that's not an option now, so striking the right balance is what I can go for.  YPAO is useless lol  I like doing my configuration manually; measure the distance of speakers and configure levels with a SPL meter.

 

I'm just trying to figure out what the RIGHT crossover frequency is for this setup so it kicks butt.  Sounds are either too much bass and possibly overlap the other sounds (sub configured for bypass by turning the low-pass filter at max and controlling crossover on AVR) which is why I have a hard time making out dialogue and surround effects.  I've kind of compensated for this by raising the level in the center channel on the receiver and doing the same for sides. When I turn up the crossover I get too little bass and know I'm missing out on what these speakers can do.  I also can't tell the difference between regular DTS and DTS-MA... my receiver supports both so content is not the issue.

 

Just looking for what Klipsch can say about this and others so I can gauge what others who have the same issue are doing.  Maybe I'm needing more tinkering around...

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Most people use 80 Hz for the sub is because anything above that and you risk voices coming through the sub.  Voices through the sub 99% don't sound good.

 

If you have a sub and want to run the L/R as "full" or "Double bass" in my experience you get a little less punch from the bottom end, but it helps to get rid of nulls if you have them.  The bass is more even throughout the room.

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2 hours ago, wvu80 said:

Most people use 80 Hz for the sub is because anything above that and you risk voices coming through the sub.  Voices through the sub 99% don't sound good.

 

If you have a sub and want to run the L/R as "full" or "Double bass" in my experience you get a little less punch from the bottom end, but it helps to get rid of nulls if you have them.  The bass is more even throughout the room.

The only time that I can think this makes a little sense is when the sub is small and can't keep up.  Running the Mains will cause more problems in most cases.  If the sub can't keep up, the best thing is to get a better sub.

 

Here is a good read when starting out with system setup.  http://forum.blu-ray.com/showthread.php?t=95817

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22 minutes ago, derrickdj1 said:

The only time that I can think this makes a little sense is when the sub is small and can't keep up.  Running the Mains will cause more problems in most cases.  If the sub can't keep up, the best thing is to get a better sub.

I would agree.  The only reason I put that out there was because the OP was asking about that exact scenario.

 

When I first got my Onk AVR I experimented with everything and every feature it offered.  It took me months.  I was simply offering the results of what I heard.

 

I personally don't care for double bass or running L/R as large when using a sub.  I don't run either one in any of my systems.  But if someone wanted to, I think that is generally the kind of sound they would get.  To me it's personal preference.  Some people might want a bass fill of the listening area with no nulls for the listening pleasure of everybody in the room.  That's OK with me.

 

But as you intimated, not my preference.  B)

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@wvu80, thanks for the info.  I know voices through the sub are not good.  I just experience dialogue and surround not being clear enough and I shouldn't have to have these levels raised too high.  It could then cause other issues like watching programs on regular TV to all of a sudden spike with variable volumes because certain channels are high in dB level (I know that's a minor thing, but if equalization is right, then its not a problem). I think that somewhere the the crossover is impacting my settings somewhere.  That's why I'm trying to tinker with the xover settings to find the right balance and play with front being set to Large for now as they wouldn't be impacted by the xover settings.  Though 80Hz is good for all other speakers like center and surround, I then loose frequencies from 40Hz to 80Hz on the front by setting them to small.  Correct me if I'm wrong, but would these be frequencies that the mids would cover?.  I think a better receiver that does multi-xover set points would be best as I can fine tune each individual speaker, but that's just not feasible at the moment, maybe in the future.  

 

As for the sub not keeping up, I don't think that's an issue, the sub I have gives enough punch for my liking.  I found that LFE + Front at 90Hz gives the best depth to the bass while keeping the highs there.  I just played with these settings yesterday and saw that they worked well with music.  Still need to run a DTS-MA movie to see how it sounds.  I know 80Hz and setting ALL speakers to small is the sweat spot for 95% of systems out there and I've used it for so long, but its just a matter of fine tuning things.  I'm just experimenting right now with the time I have.

 

This is definitely a work of love just playing around with the right settings to get that awesome sound.  I just needed the right blueprint so-to-speak to guide me in how to setup proper xover settings, because there's so much info out there to get confused with.  To that, thanks @derrickdj1 thanks for the link, definitely going to save that for future reads, it was exactly what I was looking for and will look back to for future reads.

Edited by Joe Bentes
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There should be no lost of frequencies or audio hole with setting the XO at 80 Hz.  If there is a dialogue problem, its  not from running the speakers set to small, it is most likely a setup problem.

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I'm noodling around with similar issues today. I moved my sub to a new location (a front corner to the right of my FR), to appease the gods of marital harmony. Looks better to be sure and is out of the way. It seems to sound better but I've had to dial it back- a little too much of a good thing. I reran Audessy and it set crossovers lower than had been done in the past. Had the fronts at 40, rears at 40 and centre at 60. Previous to this I had the Fronts and centre at 60 and the rears at 80. Weird.

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Not meaning to hijack Joe Bentes thread, but some of his concerns seem to pop up frequently. As mentioned yesterday I reran Audessey after a drastic sub position change within the room. By the end of the night I just wasn't satisfied, things sounded a bit murky, and far too bassey even with dial down. I ran the program again today during lunch using the same mic positions as yesterday BUT with the window wall curtains open this time. Results were again odd, but do sound better than last night. The weird bit is that this time Audessey had my fronts set as Large @ 40 as well as the rear surrounds (same measure). The centre was Small but @ 40 and the sub +1.

Last night the sub was at -10 and still way too boomy, fronts and rears @ 40 (fronts set to Large) and the centre at 60.

I've switched the fronts to Small @ 60, moved the centre to 60 and set the rears Small @ 80. It seems to sound much clearer, will noodle around a bit after work. Would ceiling to floor curtains have thrown the sound/measurements off so much? And why does the AVR (Marantz SR5008), seem convinced these speakers are Large?

 

edit: Is it possible the characteristics of the Ohm speakers are throwing things off? When I had the system running the previous RB61 II it was a straightforward wham bam thank you ma'am set up. Super simple and required very minor amounts of post fiddling.

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