Sid K Posted January 7, 2017 Share Posted January 7, 2017 Hi Everyone What are the reasons to go to a 2'" driver from a 1" driver? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PrestonTom Posted January 7, 2017 Share Posted January 7, 2017 It depends on how low in frequency the crossover is and whether you are going two-way or three way. IOW, 2 inch drivers are generally better with lows. Also sometimes the larger drivers may have difficulties with high frequency extension (both for output and coverage angle). Basically it is a design decision that needs to be made at the beginning. It will also impact how the crossover should be setup. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Deang Posted January 7, 2017 Share Posted January 7, 2017 4x the surface area, 10x less distortion. However ... If your room isn't the size of a barn, and/or you don't listen at earbleed levels, it's not that big of a game changer. Also, most 2" drivers use titanium diaphragms, and phenolic diaphragms sound more natural to me. This is a simplistic response. 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sid K Posted January 7, 2017 Author Share Posted January 7, 2017 6 minutes ago, Deang said: 4x the surface area, 10x less distortion. However ... If your room isn't the size of a barn, and/or you don't listen at earbleed levels, it's not that big of a game changer. Also, most 2" drivers use titanium diaphragms, and phenolic diaphragms sound more natural to me. This is a simplistic response. Thank you. Very good input. My listening room is very small so maybe a 2'" isnt a very good choice?? I dont listen at very loud levels either, if I do its not for very long, maybe 10-15mins. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Deang Posted January 7, 2017 Share Posted January 7, 2017 Not worth it - been there done that. Which speakers and networks do you have? 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sid K Posted January 7, 2017 Author Share Posted January 7, 2017 1 minute ago, Deang said: Not worth it - been there done that. Which speakers and networks do you have? Thank you very much for the input. I needed that. Khorns. I just put in new tweeters Eliptrac HF horn with B&C DE 120 drivers. ALK Universal Crossovers. I am having a very difficult time choosing a replacement for the K-400. Fastrac LaScala drop in replacement or Fastrac K maybe??? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sid K Posted January 7, 2017 Author Share Posted January 7, 2017 14 minutes ago, Sid K said: Thank you very much for the input. I needed that. Khorns. I just put in new tweeters Eliptrac HF horn with B&C DE 120 drivers. ALK Universal Crossovers. I am having a very difficult time choosing a replacement for the K-400. Fastrac LaScala drop in replacement or Fastrac K maybe??? I will say that there is a noticeable change in the tweeters compared to the 1978 K-77's. I can actually hear the highs now. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marvel Posted January 7, 2017 Share Posted January 7, 2017 I believe the older K-77s started dropping off around 12-13kHz. They also had a fuzzy/edgy sound to them. I switched out mine for some of Bob Crites CT125 tweets. Many say they aren't as sensitive, but I think it is more they are smoother than the K-77s. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chris A Posted January 7, 2017 Share Posted January 7, 2017 1 hour ago, Sid K said: What are the reasons to go to a 2'" driver from a 1" driver? 1) lower distortion at the same loudness levels, especially at higher SPL (sound pressure level...i.e., loudness) 2) potential elimination of a separate tweeter, its horn (i.e., "full range" compression driver), and another set of electrical or electronic crossover filters. This is probably the biggest reason for home consumer loudspeakers to use 2" compression drivers instead of 1". __________________________________________________________________________ There are some issues with #2 above...going to a full-range compression driver to eliminate the tweeter: 1) increased FM distortion (otherwise known as "Doppler distortion") which is usually inaudibly small for compression drivers in a home environment (i.e., it may be an issue for cinema or PA loudspeakers that are seeking the highest fidelity at extremely high SPL--loudness). 2) beaming of higher frequencies into smaller and smaller acoustic output coverage angles of the driver with increasing frequency. This must be compensated by the design of the phase plug (that metal thing that you see on the exit hole of the compression driver that keeps destructive interference to a minimum within the driver's internal cavities) and horn throat to spread out the high frequencies into a wider and wider beam with increasing frequency. 3) the material costs of the moving diaphragm (the moving part that produces the sound that are connected to the driver's voice coils) usually go up significantly due to the increased need for stiffness and light weight in order to have good high frequency performance. This is where the comments on titanium, phenolic, ketone, polyester, beryllium, and other diaphragm materials occur. The typical materials (titanium or aluminum, or any of the polymers) are too heavy and not stiff enough to extend the frequency response from below 500 Hz to above 15 kHz. Beryllium doesn't have any real issues in doing this, assuming that the driver was designed to take beryllium diaphragms in the first place. There can be significant issues with beryllium diaphragms that replace titanium or aluminum diaphragms in existing compression drivers, particularly for JBL drivers, depending on the exact design. 4) the design of the phase plug will need to be a more expensive annular design rather than the cheaper radial design in order to keep destructive interference in the opposing edges of the diaphragm from canceling each other out, because of the extended frequency response of the driver to eliminate the tweeter, its horn and electrical or electronic crossover filters. Chris Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chris A Posted January 7, 2017 Share Posted January 7, 2017 I didn't mention dual-diaphragm 2" compression drivers (e.g., BMS 4592-ND) that uses two diaphragms internally to break up the FM distortion creation into two parts and to handle the higher frequency stiffness issue much better. This is a good design trade, but it is difficult to achieve in practice without associated performance issues while maintaining low cost. In particular, I found that the BMS 4592-ND needs to be equalized carefully to sound its best at highest frequencies. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Deang Posted January 7, 2017 Share Posted January 7, 2017 I use Fastrac LaScalas in my LaScalas. I wanted improvement while retaining the stock look. To be honest, I'm perfectly okay with the stock horn, which sounds nice until you get carried away with the volume - the narrow throat overloads. I still use the K-77, which I think blends well with the midrange. I know it's not the best performer - but I like Klipsch vintage sound. It's like trying to mod a set of Advents or Dahlquist DQ-10s - if you're not careful, you lose the sound you love. I get mixed opinions on the Elliptrac 400. People share things with me privately that they won't share on the forum. I know several who have sold them and gone back to the rectangular mouth of the Fastrac. Volti is popular here, but the horn build is not nearly as stout as Dave's - stick with Fastlane Audio. I'm not the biggest fan of the Universal, especially the current iteration. Also, several here did analysis on networks that use the swamping resistor, and revealed that quite a bit of power is wasted to create the "constant impedance" - which isn't the end of the world if you have plenty of power - which you don't. With SET, you have to choose between non-flat response (the frequency response of the amplifier tracks the impedance curve), or giving up a significant portion of your amplifier's power to get flat response (tube amplifiers with feedback don't suffer from this dilemma). If your Klipschorns are currently using the K-55 with the spring loaded terminals, then you can also get enhanced performance by moving to a K-55 with the two port phase plug, or the John Allen A-55-G. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sid K Posted January 7, 2017 Author Share Posted January 7, 2017 4 hours ago, Deang said: I use Fastrac LaScalas in my LaScalas. I wanted improvement while retaining the stock look. To be honest, I'm perfectly okay with the stock horn, which sounds nice until you get carried away with the volume - the narrow throat overloads. I still use the K-77, which I think blends well with the midrange. I know it's not the best performer - but I like Klipsch vintage sound. It's like trying to mod a set of Advents or Dahlquist DQ-10s - if you're not careful, you lose the sound you love. I get mixed opinions on the Elliptrac 400. People share things with me privately that they won't share on the forum. I know several who have sold them and gone back to the rectangular mouth of the Fastrac. Volti is popular here, but the horn build is not nearly as stout as Dave's - stick with Fastlane Audio. I'm not the biggest fan of the Universal, especially the current iteration. Also, several here did analysis on networks that use the swamping resistor, and revealed that quite a bit of power is wasted to create the "constant impedance" - which isn't the end of the world if you have plenty of power - which you don't. With SET, you have to choose between non-flat response (the frequency response of the amplifier tracks the impedance curve), or giving up a significant portion of your amplifier's power to get flat response (tube amplifiers with feedback don't suffer from this dilemma). If your Klipschorns are currently using the K-55 with the spring loaded terminals, then you can also get enhanced performance by moving to a K-55 with the two port phase plug, or the John Allen A-55-G. Thanks for the info. So I'm confused, are you using the stock horn now or the Fastrac Lascala? Is there a noticeable difference between the two? What is your opinion on which type of crossover I should be using for liitle wattage amps? Extreme slope maybe? I dont really know to be honest with you. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Deang Posted January 8, 2017 Share Posted January 8, 2017 I'm using the Fastrac LaScala - but I'm okay with the K-400 or K-401 as long as the volume isn't driven to insane levels. Yes, the difference is pretty noticeable. The Fastrac LaScala is more relaxed and laid back. The best network for SET is the Type A or AA. 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marvel Posted January 8, 2017 Share Posted January 8, 2017 59 minutes ago, Deang said: The best network for SET is the Type A or AA. I should send my DHA2 nets to have you try them. They work great with my low power SET amps. Would I notice the difference in the loss of power with A or AA nets? Bruce Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Deang Posted January 8, 2017 Share Posted January 8, 2017 I don't know Bruce. I just know I trust the math that Mike and Kerry provided - as well as the extensive measurements that John Warren did for me. You probably just sit kind of close in a modest sized room and don't listen very loud. http://www.northreadingeng.com/Forums/viewtopic.php?f=4&t=5 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
minermark Posted January 8, 2017 Share Posted January 8, 2017 Got me thinkin on this, yep everything im running is 2", but then again im a nut. Never fails, i always learn something from reading Dean's input Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
muel Posted January 8, 2017 Share Posted January 8, 2017 14 hours ago, Deang said: 4x the surface area, 10x less distortion. However ... If your room isn't the size of a barn, and/or you don't listen at earbleed levels, it's not that big of a game changer. Also, most 2" drivers use titanium diaphragms, and phenolic diaphragms sound more natural to me. This is a simplistic response. I really don't agree that it's not that big of a game changer. Wide open, clear, natural... vs almost a pinched sound from stock horns in comparison. The BMS uses a polyester diaphram and sounds very natural with the Eliptracs. I use the mid version not the dual. I agree it matters less with the smaller room and when you start talking about that kind of money and a limited budget you might be better off investing in something else like proper room treatments. Dean, do you attenuate your mids any extra amount on your LaScalas with the Fastracs? Running Jensens pio? I can't imagine getting rid of the Eliptracs! Maybe I'll run across some Volti or other horn someday to try but I'm in no hurry. Dean is dead on about the Fastrac vs the k-400 at loud volumes! 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Deang Posted January 8, 2017 Share Posted January 8, 2017 Jupiter films in my AAs - using stock attenuation level (-3dB). When I said "not a game changer", I was thinking more about the 2" driver, and less about the horn. To be honest though, I sometimes think I prefer the K-400 at the volumes I listen at. It's complicated. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sid K Posted January 8, 2017 Author Share Posted January 8, 2017 4 hours ago, Deang said: Jupiter films in my AAs - using stock attenuation level (-3dB). When I said "not a game changer", I was thinking more about the 2" driver, and less about the horn. To be honest though, I sometimes think I prefer the K-400 at the volumes I listen at. It's complicated. Complicated...yes...thats what I have found out since I have started this journey. I like the word that you used earlier "simplistic" That makes it much easier for a guy like me that doesn't know the DEEP language used a lot of the time on these sites. From all of the input I have read and absorbed so far, I will be going with a different mid horn for sure, Fastrac Lascala more so, because of the ease of replacement. I will keep the K55 drivers. Just to recap; I have a small listening area and don't listen to loud ear bleeding levels. My next big decision will be: Crossovers... I currently have the Universal. There was a good point made earlier about me having a low watt tube amp. Currently I have 10 watts ( not the best amp available) and I cant turn it past 9 oclock, frankly its to dam loud. It sounds good though. Some might say "why change the amp then". I think a much better quality, less complicated, better built amp will improve the sound that much more. I have been hearing the term "stereo imaging a lot"...from what I understand...simply speaking means the music is seperated better to allow each instrument etc. to be heard more accurately and precise/disticnt...Is that correct? So...from what I understand the extreme slope crossover does this very well. The ES400/ ES5800 or AP15-6000 /AP12-350 and in particular. But how will it perform with a 3.5 watt amp? Is it even necessary to change the Universal at all? These are some of the reasons why I have been asking so many questions?? I will keep my posts strictly to this topic page from now on. Thanks for the very valuable input. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Deang Posted January 8, 2017 Share Posted January 8, 2017 What year were your Klipschorns made in? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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