twistedcrankcammer Posted January 14, 2017 Author Share Posted January 14, 2017 57 minutes ago, mungkiman said: What about the Shorthorn? A friend pointed to another forgotten Paul design outside of the 5, and that led mr to think about Kevin Harmons Short Horns before I even read this post. I know that Paul was not Proud of his Short Horns, but I for one would absolutely have to concede that they ARE Heritage! Roger 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ceptorman Posted January 14, 2017 Share Posted January 14, 2017 Wasn't there a Klipsch Rebel years ago? Was it short lived? I didn't look it up, just remembered that name. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kevin S Posted January 15, 2017 Share Posted January 15, 2017 I think Klipsch gets to decide what is categorized as Heritage, for better or worse. Ford got to call the Mustang II a Mustang. And sold a zillion of them. Mission accomplished. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pauln Posted January 15, 2017 Share Posted January 15, 2017 Regarding the picture in this thread of the speaker with the big woofer and feet, ("How can you be pissed at this?"), I would answer by asking, "After all the decades of PWK's research, why am I looking at clear violations of the eight cardinal rules?", just one being the feet elevating it to form a cavity. PWK himself wrote research results of the catastrophic effects of placing speakers up off the floor like that. My thoughts... I think of "Heritage" applying exclusively to the old big five. For a long time, these were the company's best "pegs" scaled and engineered answers to the question, "What fits best into this hole?" That was a reflection of the old style relationship between maker and user, and the load was on the maker to present and identify the best solution. This is similar to the company Fender that used to offer two versions of guitar. In the last 20 years Fender has offered hundreds of versions of guitar... the load to identify the best solution has been transferred to the user. So I think of Heritage as meaning the collection of solutions from which the manufacturer presented the appropriate instance to the particular problem - the user said "I have this hole" and the maker said "I have this peg for that hole". For Klipsch, all this began to get a little slippy when the Quartet, Chorus, Forte appeared because of their strong "family resemblance" to the Heritage five. It was the design principles (e.g., Eight Cardinal Rules) that defined the Heritage five. The extended Heritage shared both the "look" of the five and some of those principles, but subsequent speaker designs moved away from them... to the degree that the underlying specifications of the new versions of even the old five were subject to change. So now, in some sense I don't even consider the new remaining versions of the five Heritage the same as the old five Heritage. Just look at the Heresy... Heresy I - rated 96dB/W/m and nominally rated 8 ohms impedance, but the minimum impedance is 10.2 ohms at 150Hz.Heresy III - rated 99dB/W/m but although nominally rated 8 ohms impedance the minimum impedance is 4.2 ohms at 150Hz. The international standard is that the nominal impedance specification is to be no greater than the minimum impedance times a factor of 1.25. For Heresy I, they could have spec'ed as 12 ohm nominal speakers (12.75 ohm) instead of 8 ohm nominal.Heresy III, they should have spec'ed as 5 ohm nominal speakers (5.25 ohm) instead of 8 ohm nominal. The sensitivity spec is with respect to voltage, not watts. The spec is 2.83V, which into 8 ohms is 1 watt, but 2.83V into 4 ohms is 2 W.To be more precise, 2.83V into 4.2 ohm is 1.9 watts. The difference between 2 watts and 1 watt is 3dB. And 99dB - 3dB = 96dB.Assuming the Heresy III more efficient is incorrect. The Heresy III needs close to twice the watts of the Heresy I to hit the same sound level. This kind of analysis is what the consumer is driven to do when a company expands their product line to the point of relinquishing their role as the provider of a best one-peg solution for each sized hole. This forest of choices forces the buyers to do their own math. Creating a "market of solutions" within the company forces consumer due diligence, and that level of effort is so similar to extending their purchasing scope to other companies' product offerings, that they do so, promoting lost sales. Kinda nerdy and rambling, but aren't we all? 4 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moderators Travis In Austin Posted January 15, 2017 Moderators Share Posted January 15, 2017 On 1/14/2017 at 8:25 AM, twistedcrankcammer said: The speakers that Paul had a hand in personally but did not personally design himself have long been called "Extended Heritage" to denote that ever since this forum has existed to my knowledge, although Roy himself still considers them Heritage also, and I would never try to take Roy's Love and Loyalty to Paul lightly in ANY fashion, I for one of many, do differentiate between his personal work and his leadership of others designs. I for one as a woodworker at the time was rather pissed off when Klipsch all of a sudden came out with these MDF speakers when for so long they had been so revered for their 11 ply plywood! Roger "Extended Heritage" has been used going back to the inception of this Forum. I have been unable to find out whether that term was an official marketing term from KGI (which I suspect) or a term coined by a forum member. You should all be aware that KGI, both in marketing and on webpage has included the Forte, Chorus, Quartet and Academy going back to at least 2003. Someone should ask the Historian if he knows when Heritage was created, and by who? If Extended Heritage was an official designation of Klipsch. Found a thread on this identical subject: "Defenders of the erstwhile Quasi-Heritage faith!! Raise your glass in victory, and with pride!!! Yes, we who scraped and clawed and begged to be considered owners of Heritage speakers, who have been kicked to the curb far too often, can finally stand tall and proud, chins up, non-horn-loaded bass speakers leading the charge!!! Of what do I speak? Cast your eyes upon the revamped listing of Classic Classics, in the Heritage sub-category, and what will you find? Our beloved Forte, Quartet, Chorus, and Academy sharing disk space right alongside the likes of Heresy, Cornwall, Rebel, Shorthorn and even the 50th Anniversay Klipschorn! It is a day that will live forever (or maybe until the next post). Carry On!!!!!!" member. I think the time to be pissed off was 14 years ago, Maron (RIP) had some strong thoughts about it. I think today the thing to do is point out to KGI that there is a bit of a blur, and there really is, as to what they call Heritage on their own website. @Deang had a very practical approach which I really liked, which would still be true even today: I don't know why everything always has to be so complicated: If the speaker is called by "a name" -- it's Heritage. If if has a letter/number -- it's not. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jimjimbo Posted January 15, 2017 Share Posted January 15, 2017 Much ado about nothing.... 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moderators Travis In Austin Posted January 15, 2017 Moderators Share Posted January 15, 2017 18 minutes ago, pauln said: Regarding the picture in this thread of the speaker with the big woofer and feet, ("How can you be pissed at this?"), I would answer by asking, "After all the decades of PWK's research, why am I looking at clear violations of the eight cardinal rules?", just one being the feet elevating it to form a cavity. PWK himself wrote research results of the catastrophic effects of placing speakers up off the floor like that. My thoughts... I think of "Heritage" applying exclusively to the old big five. For a long time, these were the company's best "pegs" scaled and engineered answers to the question, "What fits best into this hole?" That was a reflection of the old style relationship between maker and user, and the load was on the maker to present and identify the best solution. This is similar to the company Fender that used to offer two versions of guitar. In the last 20 years Fender has offered hundreds of versions of guitar... the load to identify the best solution has been transferred to the user. So I think of Heritage as meaning the collection of solutions from which the manufacturer presented the appropriate instance to the particular problem - the user said "I have this hole" and the maker said "I have this peg for that hole". For Klipsch, all this began to get a little slippy when the Quartet, Chorus, Forte appeared because of their strong "family resemblance" to the Heritage five. It was the design principles (e.g., Eight Cardinal Rules) that defined the Heritage five. The extended Heritage shared both the "look" of the five and some of those principles, but subsequent speaker designs moved away from them... to the degree that the underlying specifications of the new versions of even the old five were subject to change. So now, in some sense I don't even consider the new remaining versions of the five Heritage the same as the old five Heritage. Just look at the Heresy... Heresy I - rated 96dB/W/m and nominally rated 8 ohms impedance, but the minimum impedance is 10.2 ohms at 150Hz.Heresy III - rated 99dB/W/m but although nominally rated 8 ohms impedance the minimum impedance is 4.2 ohms at 150Hz. The international standard is that the nominal impedance specification is to be no greater than the minimum impedance times a factor of 1.25. For Heresy I, they could have spec'ed as 12 ohm nominal speakers (12.75 ohm) instead of 8 ohm nominal.Heresy III, they should have spec'ed as 5 ohm nominal speakers (5.25 ohm) instead of 8 ohm nominal. The sensitivity spec is with respect to voltage, not watts. The spec is 2.83V, which into 8 ohms is 1 watt, but 2.83V into 4 ohms is 2 W.To be more precise, 2.83V into 4.2 ohm is 1.9 watts. The difference between 2 watts and 1 watt is 3dB. And 99dB - 3dB = 96dB.Assuming the Heresy III more efficient is incorrect. The Heresy III needs close to twice the watts of the Heresy I to hit the same sound level. This kind of analysis is what the consumer is driven to do when a company expands their product line to the point of relinquishing their role as the provider of a best one-peg solution for each sized hole. This forest of choices forces the buyers to do their own math. Creating a "market of solutions" within the company forces consumer due diligence, and that level of effort is so similar to extending their purchasing scope to other companies' product offerings, that they do so, promoting lost sales. Kinda nerdy and rambling, but aren't we all? Agree with most of what you say here, except your diversion off the path of Heritage into ratings which was throughly covered in another thread. KGI doesn't use the "international standard", as Kerry and Roy explained, KGI uses the AES standard. Travis 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bracurrie Posted January 16, 2017 Share Posted January 16, 2017 On 1/14/2017 at 8:48 AM, Thaddeus Smith said: Doesn't piss me off and I dig the design, but I worry about longevity with these. Their long therm track record with integrated electronics/amps is less than stellar and this is a big friggin door stop if those components fail after a decade. If they can be repaired without major surgery, I would take that risk gladly. Brad Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bracurrie Posted January 16, 2017 Share Posted January 16, 2017 Wow. I have been aware from here for some time again. I see the Forte III announcement and came here to see what everybody thinks. And... The biggest discussion seems to be about the "Heritage" designation. But my excitement comes from the Roy D interview that gets to how the speaker was improved. Wish he would dive back in here to share thoughts etc. I believe products should be retired when the appeal in the market drops and it doesn't support the company business model. Then only after time AND when you can improve the speaker AND reasonably believe the new model will support the business model then bring the brand back with the improved model. As an owner of Forte IIs I cannot wait to hear the Forte IIIs. Whatever management calls it is ok. But what the members here call it, now that matters. Brad 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marvel Posted January 16, 2017 Share Posted January 16, 2017 Dude, where you been? I love the looks of the new gear, if only I had the coin. I'll have to, for the moment, put up with my LaScalas and Heresy II speaker. Would love to be able to buy some NEW Klipsch! Bruce 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bracurrie Posted January 16, 2017 Share Posted January 16, 2017 Just now, Marvel said: Dude, where you been? I love the looks of the new gear, if only I had the coin. I'll have to, for the moment, put up with my LaScalas and Heresy II speaker. Would love to be able to buy some NEW Klipsch! Bruce Life happens. Hope to clear the decks soon so I can be a regular again. I occasionally read in, but don't take the time to chips in. So many good people cover the territory so well. Brad 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chris A Posted January 16, 2017 Share Posted January 16, 2017 2 hours ago, dwilawyer said: KGI doesn't use the "international standard", as Kerry and Roy explained, KGI uses the AES standard. Actually, AES is international. I think that you're referring to IEC, which AES does feed. Most of the AES standards either become IEC standards or merge to form a joint standard that supersedes the former AES standards. To propose to hide behind the notion that "that's an international standard--not a U.S. standard" is a notion that has basically been rendered OBE. __________________________________________________________________________ Travis, there are a couple of terms that you keep using that I find to be a bit odd for the forum... One is "KGI" when I really think that you mean "Klipsch" for the general forum membership here: it's much clearer... Another is calling a not-yet-released loudspeaker a "Sr. Delgado", when I believe you mean that the loudspeaker was designed by Roy Delgado, but is a Klipsch product apparently about to be called the "Klipsch Forte III". I don't believe that Roy has gone into business for himself yet, making a "Sr. Delgado"...(?) I'm sure that you realize that this might be construed as a put-down of the other people that also work on the same loudspeaker model at Klipsch. Chris Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
oldtimer Posted January 16, 2017 Share Posted January 16, 2017 You two should be put inside a cage and left alone with no witnesses, lights out, and doors locked. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chris A Posted January 16, 2017 Share Posted January 16, 2017 ...... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moderators Travis In Austin Posted January 16, 2017 Moderators Share Posted January 16, 2017 26 minutes ago, Chris A said: Actually, AES is international. I think that you're referring to IEC, which AES does feed. Most of the AES standards either become IEC standards or merge to form a joint standard that supersedes the former AES standards. To propose to hide behind the notion that "that's an international standard--not a U.S. standard" is a notion that has basically been rendered OBE. __________________________________________________________________________ Travis, there are a couple of terms that you keep using that I find to be a bit odd for the forum... One is "KGI" when I really think that you mean "Klipsch" for the general forum membership here: it's much clearer... Another is calling a not-yet-released loudspeaker a "Sr. Delgado", when I believe you mean that the loudspeaker was designed by Roy Delgado, but is a Klipsch product apparently about to be called the "Klipsch Forte III". I don't believe that Roy has gone into business for himself yet, making a "Sr. Delgado"...(?) I'm sure that you realize that this might be construed as a put-down of the other people that also work on the same loudspeaker model at Klipsch. Chris A company has to purchase the "book" from IEC, used to be 12K. AES went to making their standards available to anyone who wants them, not just members. Roy and Kerry both stated in the thread about sensitivity ratings, how they test, etc. is from AES because that is what they are members of, some of them life members. Maybe you didn't see the thread. The main reason for bringing it up was a thread crap, if you want to discuss standards and methodologies there is that other thread or you can start another one. It doesn't have anything to do with Roger's OP. Everyone knows what KGI is, I have been dealing on transactions with them related to the Museum and then abbreviate Klipsch Group, Inc. to KGI. It's 3 letters vs 7 so it will probably be force of habit for a while. This has to do with putting Heritage on products how? I suggested naming it a Delgado because it is thin and to honor Roy's work on the speaker and the II. Roy came back "more like Sr. Delgado." It was in two separate threads different than this one. Why bring it up here? If you have any more questions or want to discuss something further post it in the appropriate thread or shoot me a PM and I will be happy to discuss it in the appropriate place. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chris A Posted January 16, 2017 Share Posted January 16, 2017 Chill Travis...No one is coming after you. I was (uncharacteristically) poking fun...based on the topic of the thread. Perhaps you missed it. Chris Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chris A Posted January 16, 2017 Share Posted January 16, 2017 DP...we got a tornado on the ground a few miles south...and lightning is upsetting the dog... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moderators Travis In Austin Posted January 16, 2017 Moderators Share Posted January 16, 2017 19 minutes ago, oldtimer said: You two should be put inside a cage and left alone with no witnesses, lights out, and doors locked. He's just asking questions, in the wrong place, but just questions, so I take it that no one has anything to add on @twistedcrankcammer subject? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moderators Travis In Austin Posted January 16, 2017 Moderators Share Posted January 16, 2017 4 minutes ago, Chris A said: Chill Travis...No one is coming after you. I was (uncharacteristically) poking fun...based on the topic of the thread. Perhaps you missed it. Chris Completely. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
oldtimer Posted January 16, 2017 Share Posted January 16, 2017 Besides the fact that he gets pissed off at pretty much anything, and easily? Probably not. Is thread drift now a crime? 2 minutes ago, dwilawyer said: He's just asking questions, in the wrong place, but just questions, so I take it that no one has anything to add on @twistedcrankcammer subject? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts
Join the conversation
You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.
Note: Your post will require moderator approval before it will be visible.