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My First Setup (with questions)


MetalHead3028

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First off, I look forward to reading through the forums.  I wasn't able to view topics until I registered.  I've been on here multiple times (reading and dreaming) since.

 

Background (I'll try and keep it short):

I first heard Klipsch speakers at my brother-in-law's house.  He had just purchased a 5.1 system with Quintet speakers and a Klipsch sub.  I wasn't so much focused on the stage, semblance, etc. but more the pure volume and clarity these speakers had.  It started at an early age, but I like my music/movies LOUD (drives my wife crazy - Ha!).  Most speakers I've owned (all low-fi) couldn't pump out the volume without distortion like the Quintet system was doing.  From that point forward, I wanted to own Klipsch speakers.  Fast forward a few years, and I'm currently working on house plans to custom build a house.  This house will undoubtedly have a dedicated theater/music room.  How big?  I'm not sure, yet.  The cool thing is it allowed me to start piecing together a surround sound setup.  At this point in time, I definitely have to adhere to a budget.  All of our free money is going towards building the house.  So, I've been scouring Craigslist and Goodwill until I've put together my first 5.1 system.  Over time, I plan to keep scouring the web and will replace speakers/receivers as I find better ones.

 

Mains:  KG5.2 ($250 on Craiglist)

Center:  RC25 ($80 with the RB25's on Craigslist)

Surrounds:  RB25

Sub:  Proficient Audio Systems S12 ($52 on Shopgoodwill.com)

Receiver:  Onkyo TX-SR607 ($40 on Shopgoodwill.com)

 

I think this system sounds really good with music/movies.  I really don't have to use the sub for a majority of what I watch/listen to.  It's crazy how much bass comes from one active 10" woofer.  The question I have is regarding higher volume.  I can push the volume to a point where I hear distortion.  I mean, it's loud, but it's not LOUD.  I may be expecting the speakers to do something they're not made to do, but all of the reviews I've read say these things will "boogie" when you want them to.  Honestly, I want speakers that will go loud enough that I have to stop the volume increase due to listening discomfort rather than me stopping the volume increase based on distortion.  The KG5.2's are completely stock in regards to diaphragms and crossovers.  Would titanium tweeter diaphragms fix this issue?  Do I need a better receiver (I had an older Kenwood hooked up to them at one time and noticed the distortion, as well)?  Should I keep an eye out for different Klipsch speakers that would better satisfy my quest for volume?  I appreciate any insight you guys can give me.

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Where exactly is the distortion coming from?  Any specific pair of speakers?  Might be best to isolate that first.  And/or, what type of room do you have them set up in?  Are there a lot of reflective surfaces such as wood/tile floors, glass windows/doors, etc?  It is possible that the distortion could be coming from the receiver as you drive it harder, but possibly want to troubleshoot other sources first.

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Jim, currently I only have the KG5.2's hooked up, as I don't have the space to hook everything back up.  I've only tested the whole system together a couple of times.  So, from the best I can tell, the distortion is coming from the horn of the KG5.2's.  It seems like they both sound the same (eliminating an issue with just one of the speakers).  I am conscious of the bass levels to insure I don't get distortion from the woofers.  The room they are in is a wide open room in the basement (kid's play room).  It's probably 15'-0" x 30'-0".  Carpet on the floors, drywalled walls, and no windows.  I've sat pretty close to the speakers to try and isolate the distortion (pretty loud when you're 12" from the speaker) and eliminate other factors.  The receiver has a range of 0 - 80.  65 is about as loud as I can get it before I start to hear distortion.  Not sure what reference level is on Onkyo receivers.  Mine doesn't have an option to use a relative scale.  Part of me thinks the receiver could be part of the issue but the other part of me thinks I may be expecting too much from these speakers.  Even though Klipsch speakers are advertised to be none to very low distortion, is distortion a higher volumes common?  I figured people here have WAY more experience with Klipsch speakers than I do.

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Well, I guess one question is....what levels are you listening at?  65 on a scale to 80 for the receiver is just a bit over 81%.....that's a lot.  You might be expecting just a bit too much from the amp and speakers to be honest.  Do you happen to have an SPL meter?  I would recommend it.  You may even have an app on your phone you can use for basic measurements.  You may want to see if a friend has an amp/receiver you can borrow for a test.  That would help to isolate.

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Thank you for your replies, Jim.  I thought I read somewhere that 65 was reference level on Onkyo receivers.  Maybe I'm pushing too hard.  I'll check on getting an SPL meter.  It'd be a handy tool for sure.

 

Do you think titanium diaphragms would help with the little bit of distortion I do hear?

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On 1/19/2017 at 1:44 PM, MetalHead3028 said:

This house will undoubtedly have a dedicated theater/music room.  How big?  I'm not sure, yet.  

As this is the single biggest factor in how any future audio expense is going to perform, you may want to make this decision VERY carefully. 15 foot ceiling height if at all possible.

 

On 1/19/2017 at 1:44 PM, MetalHead3028 said:

 At this point in time, I definitely have to adhere to a budget.

 

On 1/19/2017 at 1:44 PM, MetalHead3028 said:

Honestly, I want speakers that will go loud enough that I have to stop the volume increase due to listening discomfort rather than me stopping the volume increase based on distortion.

These two are mutually exclusive. It's not because of the speakers per say, but rather the electronics and other equipment involved to pull it off. As distortion goes down, the ear's tolerance for SPL goes up. We can handle a fair a bit of clean sound (80dB SPL in the mid range and 110 dB SPL in the bass is not unreasonable), and it takes the right gear and room to keep things able to play that "physical".

 

Sure those KG's will go loud, but they need to be high passed to do that. Which places a tall order on that sub. The limiting factor in all this.

 

High pass the KG to increase their power handling, at the same double or quadruple your sub count to pull as much program power out of the Onkyo, putting into the plate amps instead.

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Quote

As this is the single biggest factor in how any future audio expense is going to perform, you may want to make this decision VERY carefully. 15 foot ceiling height if at all possible.

Unfortunately, my theater/music room will be in the basement.  8'-0" to 9'-0" ceilings is best I'm going to get.  The rest of the parameters are open for design.

 

Quote

These two are mutually exclusive. It's not because of the speakers per say, but rather the electronics and other equipment involved to pull it off. As distortion goes down, the ear's tolerance for SPL goes up. We can handle a fair a bit of clean sound (80dB SPL in the mid range and 110 dB SPL in the bass is not unreasonable), and it takes the right gear and room to keep things able to play that "physical".

You bring up a good point I've never thought of before.  If the sound is clean, I may never stop turning them up.

 

Quote

Sure those KG's will go loud, but they need to be high passed to do that. Which places a tall order on that sub. The limiting factor in all this.

 

High pass the KG to increase their power handling, at the same double or quadruple your sub count to pull as much program power out of the Onkyo, putting into the plate amps instead

This is an interesting approach, too.  Would I high pass the speakers using the receiver?  As in setting the KG's filter at 100 Hz and let the sub(s) try and keep up?  The KG's don't have the low/high frequencies separated at the binding posts like some of the other speakers I have.

 

I appreciate your response and suggestions!

Edited by MetalHead3028
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On 1/20/2017 at 8:50 AM, MetalHead3028 said:

Do you think titanium diaphragms would help with the little bit of distortion I do hear?

I would first exclude everything else from the equation as to what may be causing the distortion before going that route...

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50 minutes ago, MetalHead3028 said:

Unfortunately, my theater/music room will be in the basement.  8'-0" to 9'-0" ceilings is best I'm going to get.  The rest of the parameters are open for design.

Think about putting acoustic absorption and diffusion panels on the ceiling if it is less than 8' (really).  Thicker carpet also helps around and just in front of the loudspeakers out to about 6 feet in front.

 

Otherwise, you can put absorption material around the top and bottom of the midrange horn mouths to soak up any acoustic polars that are headed for the ceiling. 

 

On 1/19/2017 at 2:44 PM, MetalHead3028 said:

The question I have is regarding higher volume.  I can push the volume to a point where I hear distortion.  I mean, it's loud, but it's not LOUD.  I may be expecting the speakers to do something they're not made to do, but all of the reviews I've read say these things will "boogie" when you want them to.  Honestly, I want speakers that will go loud enough that I have to stop the volume increase due to listening discomfort rather than me stopping the volume increase based on distortion.

This is where you get out your pocketbook. 

 

The single greatest source of compression, harmonic, and modulation distortion in your setup is the sub.  If you want to have louder perceived sound, I'd recommend a good DIY horn-loaded sub that has solid sub-20-Hz performance.  If you need help with alternatives and how much they cost, then you can inquire here.

 

The next greatest source of the above mentioned distortion types are the woofers in your K5.2s: if you want to have clean and loud sound, I recommend horn-loaded woofers.  La Scalas work best (or Khorns if you have the room for false corners)...after you already have a good horn-loaded sub (or two or three).  You'll need to select horn-loaded sub(s) that can go as high as 70-80 Hz.(some of the best horn-loaded subs don't go that high) if using La Scalas.

 

The last thing that you'll need to upgrade are your high frequency drivers/horns. 

 

Chris

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5 hours ago, MetalHead3028 said:

Would I high pass the speakers using the receiver?  As in setting the KG's filter at 100 Hz and let the sub(s) try and keep up?

:emotion-21: Yup. Possibly even higher depending on how the room is interacting at the listening position, but you can check that with your SPL Meter when you get that. :wink: When you start adding subs (whatever flavor you end up going with), sensitivity will eventually increase to the point of having to really dial down their filters in order to keep them from walking all over (ie. interfering with) the KG. Don't be surprised if you end up running the subs low-passed between 30-60 Hz and the KG high passed between 90-150 Hz. Something worth experimenting with even now. :emotion-55: Might unlock some untapped potential there before spending anything.

5 hours ago, MetalHead3028 said:

The KG's don't have the low/high frequencies separated at the binding posts like some of the other speakers I have.

No worries there.

5 hours ago, MetalHead3028 said:

I appreciate your response and suggestions!

You're welcome. :emotion-22:

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