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Sub for Jubilee - Klipschorn


RSVRMAN
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One nice benefit of having a horn load, outside of sound is I have a destructive little one. I know that if he saw a big ol 18 woofer sitting in a box it would have dents and holes before I know it. I'm sure I could fit grills, but just a thought.

 

Going horn, I would probably push towards having a rack amp, I'm liking the K2, since its fanless, are there any other offerings currently available that do not have fans?

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Movies will take advantage of the ULF from a good sub system.  I only use two subs for music and all 8 for movies.  Subs that can give you the ULF are expensive so, many of us go DIY to get a bit more bang for the bucks.  If you are looking for some DIY design, the DIY subwoofer and speaker section has a variety of plans and cut list.

 

We got side track, which happens from time to time .  The key is with the appropriate selection of components you can put together a great system.  It is the compliment of gear and not just any one piece.  Keep us up to date on the direction you are heading.:)

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There is an assumption that "horn loaded systems" have less driver excursion than direct radiator systems. It's a nice thought, but that simple remedy is simply not true across the board. You see this in both simulation and measurement world. This becomes the reality when the horns are undersized, which is the case for very low frequency devices.

 

Also, if we're talking about "impedance matching" - which is one way to talk about horns, then you can't talk about "impedance matching" without first understanding the load you're trying to drive. The load in this case is the listening room - and specifically the wavefront that arrives at the listening position. The source in both cases is the driver.

 

If you crank through the math, then you will find that a "classic horn" is not the best way to couple the wavefront to the listener at the listening position for a "typical" home environment, especially if you're dealing with an "undersized horn" in an acoustically "small room". A "classic horn" assumes radiation into free space. You get more power per displacement using other methods in a "small room". Not that this is an example of quality reproduction, but there's a reason you don't see horns in the car audio subwoofer SPL drag races. It's the same physics at play - just that the room is even smaller.

 

I'm putting quotes around these terms because they are loosely defined concepts that can have an effect on these conclusions depending on the specific situation. Anyone claiming that a horn automatically has less modulation distortion is drinking kool-aid. Can it have less? Yes. Can it have more? Also yes. It depends on the design and implementation.

 

The thing is - you're going to get more bang for the buck avoiding the classical horn route for very low frequencies. It's just how the physics play out. Anytime you make the horn bigger to give it more advantage, then you can always add more drivers and end up with a smaller total footprint that meets the same SPL requirements. And even if you make the horn bigger, it's the compression ratio that determines your best-case excursion reduction. Make the compression ratio higher and the horn has to get much much longer for the same pass-band ripple. It's more volume-efficient to use multiple drivers to achieve the same excursion per SPL at the lower frequencies (and you have a perfectly flat passband). This is why pro-sound touring companies use direct radiators for their subwoofers.

 

At high frequencies, horns are always better. Our rooms are acoustically large at high frequencies (so the free space assumptions are valid) and we're getting very large compression ratios because there is enough space for the horn to be appropriately sized and couple well. At low frequencies, we have small rooms and the horn isn't big enough to get the energy out of the horn. The frequency response ripple in an undersized horn is the result of "room modes" inside the horn. Designs that are undersized but appear to have less ripple are converting energy to heat inside the horn (which is still energy not getting out). On top of that principal, inside a small room, the direct radiator gets coupling benefits from the room itself. That "room gain" provides more gain to the direct radiator than the horn firing into the same location. A lot of that impedance matching work of the horn is duplicated by the room - the thing is, you can't get a double benefit from impedance matching.

 

Anyways, that's not to say that you can't get a good sounding horn loaded subwoofer. It's simply going to be a larger cabinet than a comparably performing direct radiating setup. And by comparable, I mean same bandwidth, spl, and excursion requirements.

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2 hours ago, DrWho said:

Btw, have you seen this website?

http://www.data-bass.com/data?page=systems&col=2&type=1&sort=desc&mfr=-1

That's a direct link to sorting by CEA2010 distortion numbers over a 10-63Hz bandwidth.

 

 

Yes I have spent a lot of time there.  Prices pushed me towards horn loaded. A lot of the 18s that rumble down below the 20hz range start at around $2k. The cheaper ones tend to be drivers from 6 years ago with comments of them being "boomy" which is something I'd avoid. 

 

Im fortunate that I don't need a wide bandwidth until the bass bin takes over. Only needing that sub 20hz until 30hz ish where ever it seems best to crossover. Just happy I went active since I can easily play in this area.

 

The smaller footprint is always a huge plus, thankfully I'm not entirely limited on space and leaning towards the littlewrecker should be fine.

 

While a flat eq is what is most desired, when I get closer to a decision I'm hopeful I can hear a few of these prior to purchase or build. I'm not sure how to explain as data may not back up, which one sounds more musical. I'm currently bound to everyone's opinions in this area. Thankfully there are quite a few posts of khorn owners and what they use for subwoofers. Reading through these threads, the majority of the users are using horn loaded and very happy with their decision.

 

Now being objective, most people already prefer their own system more than someone else's, so they tend to always post what they have and recommend it. I'm also not sure how many of these owners experimented with box enclosures, which would be nice to read on. In addition some of these threads need the cobwebs dusted off, as driver technology has improved considerably in even the past few years. This reason alone is what led me to wanting an IB solution and when we do move another few years I can't wait to try something like that out without having neighbors nearby to complain.

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1 minute ago, Khornukopia said:

I listen to live music a couple times a week and I think that direct radiators do a great job of sounding exactly like a live band. I also have folded horn woofers at home, so I am going to agree with everyone on this thread.

 

IMG_9788 - Copy.JPG

While a lot of bands use direct radiators I'm wondering if it's also a choice by their sound guy or selves to not have to lug a 300 pound cabinet around or several.

 

Im on mobile right now so I can't see sigs. Can you share what horns you have and pairing them with?

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I have some stock Klipschorns without subs for background music, and some tri-amped Klipschorns with three great sounding 18" ported subwoofers from way before I joined the forum and then discovered that horn loaded subwoofers are recommended, but these perform so well that I hesitate to give them away and find out that a "better sub" may not sound as good as these do in my space. Actually, I firmly believe that just as important as having a quality subwoofer, is to install properly positioned bass traps for powerful, well distributed low frequency response in a listening room.

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7 hours ago, Khornukopia said:

I have some stock Klipschorns without subs for background music, and some tri-amped Klipschorns with three great sounding 18" ported subwoofers from way before I joined the forum and then discovered that horn loaded subwoofers are recommended, but these perform so well that I hesitate to give them away and find out that a "better sub" may not sound as good as these do in my space. Actually, I firmly believe that just as important as having a quality subwoofer, is to install properly positioned bass traps for powerful, well distributed low frequency response in a listening room.

Knornukopia, this is an important post because you have found a way to integrate the two systems.  No one can tell you what you enjoy more.  There is compression from a horn sub that can make a kick drum and a bass note seem tighter but, this is a from of distortion.  Also, many modern recording will do the compression for you.  It is absurd to blindly recommend one sub design to everyone.  I like shrimp alfredo and ropa vieja but, that does not mean everyone else wants to eat it.

The elegant post by Dr. Who illustrates some of the problems and pluses of adding a horn sub or direct radiator.  I don't know of a system setup without a compromise at some place in the chain.  The goal is to select a system delivering what you find pleasant and pleasing.  Here is a nice piece that I ran across on the internet: http://forums.prosoundweb.com/index.php?topic=135154.0

 

You are right that (in most cases) a folded horn has a larger footprint than a typical direct radiating subwoofer. In cases where a folded horn is not larger (or is not much larger) than say a dual 18" DR sub, the folded horn is likely to be compromised and does not behave fully as a bass horn.

Back in the day (which you refer to) "we" often preferred folded horns because they provided more acoustic outut (within their passband) and (just as likely) the DR subwoofer drivers simply ran out of steam. Sometime during the late 1980's, cone drivers began to become available with greater power handling and slightly higher sensitivity. At the same time, power amps were developed with significantly greater output. So we began to introduce (or observe others who began to use) direct radiating subwoofer systems that could get as loud (or loud enough) as our folded horns had and they took up less truck, van and stage space *and* went lower. We began to experience and appreciate life below 50Hz  ;D

One of the sonic characteristics which almost all folded horns exhibited was compression. Which makes sense when you consider that sound is being squeezed into a small throat and then allowed to expand as the flare travels (expands) through the enclosure and exits via the mouth. Horn Theory 101.

When we tranistioned to DR subs, I was in love with the extended LF response (this was also when 5-string basses became a significant trend, thus response went down to 32Hz) and smaller size plus the lower load impedance to the amplifiers. But I also missed the very nice, acoustic/mechanical compression which tightened up the kick drum and bass (slapped or plucked/walking).  

Over time I guess I got used to DR subs and relied more on electronic compression to get what we wanted. Alot of people did this.

There are folded horns available now which, for all intents and purposes, go as low as DR subs ....... or low enough. Tom Danley's tapped horns come immediatley to my mind. But they still have to follow the rules (laws of physics) and are larger than most dual 18" DR enclosures will be. The LAB Sub is an iteration of Danley's design philosphy and seems to work in much the same way as their tapped horns do.

It would be intersting to calculate and compare the footprint of a DR subwoofer system versus (say) one with Danley tapped horns (or other folded horn systems) where each provide the same acoustic output and low frequency limit. And also compare cost. 

I believe that DR sub systems are still used more widely at all levels of the industry (including installed systems) than folded horns. But perhaps not by a huge margin. And I, for one, strongly believe that the new breeds of well-designed bass horns have their place.

In your own search for an appropriate subwoofer it is likely that a DR will suit you best. There are a lot of very good devices out there. And there's a good amount of crap. In my experience, cost is a huge factor. There simply are no (comparative) "bargains" when it comes to moving lots of air while being reliable and sounding good. 

Try before you buy.

Hopefully this somewhat helps to answer your query.
« Last Edit: December 13, 2011, 07:18:49 pm by Tom Young »
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Consider the Submaximus if you want a FLH instead of a tapped horn. 

 

http://www.avsforum.com/forum/155-diy-speakers-subs/1981369-gjhallerhorn-v2-submaximus-pair-uxl-s-3.html#post45063122

 

Scroll down to post 67 and see what a horn loaded 18 will do. The UXL 18 is $550 if you can find it in stock. 

 

I have a UXL 18 and toy around with building a Submaximus pretty often. I haven't done it yet, but maybe one day. 

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13 hours ago, RSVRMAN said:

 

 

Im on mobile right now so I can't see sigs. Can you share what horns you have and pairing them with?

 

Not in my signature but one of my systems I'm running modified THT with modified La Scala's. Also experimented with other La Scala's i had with different horn loaded models and direct radiating combinations of subs over the years witch gave the conclusion that horns go with horns, others here as well have experimented maybe not to the same extent as i have built but came to the same conclusion.

 

You may have better luck getting answers starting a new thread if you really want to know what others are running with their horns.

 

 

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My direct radiator subs are EQ'd flat to 20Hz, and protected by a 48db/oct. subsonic filter. While playing music with 100+db peaks, I watched the 18" cones moving about 2mm. Good enough for me, but I don't have Klipsch Jubilees, so when people who do have them recommend a certain type of subwoofer to go with Jubilees, that is probably the best way to go.

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Ported and IB subs should be electronically limited with a subsonic filter/high pass filter to prevent damage from cone over-excursion. Subs with factory attached amps are usually DSP programmed this way. Sealed box and horn loaded subs are not as vulnerable to over-excursion risk, because the back chamber acts as a spring.  

 

Your DC-One is a good DSP.

Lot of folks enjoy their Klipschorns and Jubilees without subs. When your Jubilees arrive, try them with a little bass boost and see what you think.

 

IMG_3179.JPG

 

 

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I plan to play with the Jubilees for awhile before I'd decide on getting a subwoofer for sure. I understand the crossover filters for each point of the system, however I dont understand what happens when you go below an amp rating. Sorry, I should have clarified my question, when using the crossover as the DSP, the Amp for the subwoofer would receive below 20hz (for subs), however the amps all above have a rating of 20hz>20khz. In this instance, what will the amp do for the subsonic material that is rated below that? 

I've seen several horn builds over on AVS and many are using the inukes which have the rating above, so I'm assuming the amp will still push the lower signal? Or is there some sort of passthrough on the back or in the settings of an amp to allow it to either ignore the DSP or push all signals. Been trying to search for awhile on this, but can't seem to get an answer that makes sense in my head. Hope this makes sense for you hah!

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3 hours ago, Khornukopia said:

Ported and IB subs should be electronically limited with a subsonic filter/high pass filter to prevent damage from cone over-excursion. Subs with factory attached amps are usually DSP programmed this way. Sealed box and horn loaded subs are not as vulnerable to over-excursion risk, because the back chamber acts as a spring.  

 

Your DC-One is a good DSP.

Lot of folks enjoy their Klipschorns and Jubilees without subs. When your Jubilees arrive, try them with a little bass boost and see what you think.

 

IMG_3179.JPG

 

 

 

If you are using EQ on a sealed DR or horn sub its easy to damage a woofer and you probably won't even hear it coming on a fully horn loaded design.

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2 hours ago, RSVRMAN said:

I plan to play with the Jubilees for awhile before I'd decide on getting a subwoofer for sure. I understand the crossover filters for each point of the system, however I dont understand what happens when you go below an amp rating. Sorry, I should have clarified my question, when using the crossover as the DSP, the Amp for the subwoofer would receive below 20hz (for subs), however the amps all above have a rating of 20hz>20khz. In this instance, what will the amp do for the subsonic material that is rated below that? 

I've seen several horn builds over on AVS and many are using the inukes which have the rating above, so I'm assuming the amp will still push the lower signal? Or is there some sort of passthrough on the back or in the settings of an amp to allow it to either ignore the DSP or push all signals. Been trying to search for awhile on this, but can't seem to get an answer that makes sense in my head. Hope this makes sense for you hah!

 

Some amplifiers have high pass filters, you may need to do some snooping around to find information about it for the model you are interested in.

 

If i recall the Dayton listed above is -3dB @18 Hz.

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