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DIY Sub Questions


ACV92

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I'm considering diving into a DIY sub build after looking into a few others setups.  I thought I would start with the Dayton Audio 12" Ultimax Kit and the Crown XLS 1002 Drivecore pro amp from Parts Express.  I'm limited to the 12" due to some space constraints.  It's mainly for music so I'm not overly worried about trolling down to subsonic levels.  I have some questions for those that have done this before.  

 

I have an older Marantz SR8400 with no XLR outputs.  So, for the input to the Crown I was going to use an XLR to RCA adapter and an RCA cable from mono out to adapter.  The Crown amp has RCA inputs but is there any advantage doing it the way I suggested?  I've read that some think that input line level voltage is a consideration when using a pro amp.  So, I'd like to setup right the first time.  For the output I was going to use Speakon connectors at both ends and put a female Speakon terminal on the back of the sub.  I don't see any issues with this.  

 

I am curious as to what people like for decent RCA sub cable.  I'm not into the hype of the super expensive cords.  I just want something with good shielding and that works well.  Seems like there's hundreds of them out there.  Some suggestions here would be helpful.

 

With that, any comments are appreciated as to if I'm headed in the right direction, changes, etc.  It won't be for a month or so, it's a little cold in the garage yet, but I wanted to start getting everything together.  Thanks in advance.

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If there's a way to beat the pricing on sub cables from Monoprice, I sure don't know what it is.

https://www.monoprice.com/product?p_id=2743

 

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I'll comment on the DIY sub later.  In short, it's a lot of fun to DIY, especially with those DA kits.  B)

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Here's your Umax combo:

http://www.parts-express.com/dayton-audio-12-ultimax-subwoofer-and-cabinet-bundle--300-7096

 

It looks as if you are light on the 350 wpc amp x2 into 4 ohms as that Umax 12 will handle 600.  It claims 1100 wpc into 1 in bridged mode.  You get the most bang for your buck when you can build a second sub and let the single amp run both.

 

If you want to keep one amp for one sub you might want to consider the Inuke 3000 w/ dsp.  Some people don't want the dsp and you can save some cash by getting the Inuke 3000, which is 800 watts at 4 ohms, two channels driven.

http://www.parts-express.com/behringer-nu3000-inuke-3000-watt-power-amplifier--248-6704

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I've used the RCA connection on all of my subs.  If possible see if there is a kit for the UM 12.  The only other thing that I would suggest is an amp with DSP otherwise you may need to buy something like the Mini DSP later. The DSP will help you integrated the box and raise levels if you can't them high enough with the gain knob. Are you going sealed or vented sub box.

 

Where are you located.  You may be near someone that has built a sub.  I will be building a vented box when the weather is better and get rid of my sealed UM 18.

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15 minutes ago, jason str said:

Don't overlook the Dayton HO series drivers, works good in small sealed boxes and i would prefer these personally with a music only system but not sure exactly what you planned on using this for.

Excellent suggestion. He did mention in Post 1 he was looking at mainly music, so you are good with that.

 

I have the Reference 15, sealed, Yung plate amp 500 wpc /bass boost and I just love it for music.  It will thump your chest, but I doubt it would satisfy the Big Box guys in terms of digging strong down to 20 Hz.  The Umax kits dig deeper and handle more power.

 

Here's the Reference 12 combo, which can handle 700 wpc.

http://www.parts-express.com/dayton-audio-12-reference-series-ho-subwoofer-and-cabinet-bundle--300-7092

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21 minutes ago, jason str said:

Don't overlook the Dayton HO series drivers, works good in small sealed boxes and i would prefer these personally with a music only system but not sure exactly what you planned on using this for.

I agree with this also. It is an excellent sub line. I have it in the 18" and its fantastic for both music and movies. If you're leaning towards music I would consider it over the ultimax, the ultimax is a great sub as well, the HO line is just slightly more musical. I have mine paired with the Dayton Audio SA1000, and highly recommend the amplifier. It's easier to connect in a home system, less adapters etc. Also has plenty of power if you decided to upgrade to a larger subwoofer down the line.

 

http://www.parts-express.com/dayton-audio-sa1000-subwoofer-amplifier-rack-mountable--300-811

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I am only looking at one sub for now. 

 

jasonstr (others) - I was thinking of the Ultimax considering that it should run a flatter response curve, drops a hair lower without as much loss at the bottom.  It makes sense with the HO though with music.  Smaller enclosure, different driver, which has more of an ability to push the curve a little higher in the 'music' bass range.  Do many music tracks trickle down in the low 20's?  I thought that the bottom in most music was around 25 - 30 hz. 

 

wvu80 - monoprice is where I bought my speaker wire when I redid my rec room setup.  So, you feel that the 'bridged' rating of multi-channel amps is overstated?  Are the ratings with mono amps more accurate?  Marketing tactics are always up for scrutiny.  The Crown I'm looking at is, as you said, rated at 1,000 bridged.  The Behringer unit you recommended is rated at 3,000.  Fizik recommended the Dayton (mono) unit at slightly under 1,000.  You really don't think that the Behringer would be overkill?  Appreciate your input.  

 

derrickdj1 - I'm sticking with a sealed unit.  Tight transients is what I'm looking for.  I know with enough power and the right design vented enclosure you can get awesome results.  For a first DIY I'll stick with sealed.  I'm in Spokane Valley, WA.  I might have to try and convince Fizik to let me see what he's done.  I work in Boise once a month.

 

Fizik - I'll be heading to Boise in a couple of weeks.  Are you up for a demo?  I usually stay in Nampa.  If not, that's fine.  The Dayton unit you recommended does look like it would be a little less involved than a DSP.  Unless I'm looking at this incorrectly.  I'll have to do some more research. 

 

The Crown amp I was looking it says it has a DSP.  The Dayton unit looks as if, correct me if I'm wrong, a passive EQ.  DSP's are active control, right?  Remind me what the general trade offs are.  It's been awhile since I've dug into what little audio knowledge I have.  Anyway, thanks all.  It is appreciated.   

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9 minutes ago, ACV92 said:

  Marketing tactics are always up for scrutiny.  The Crown I'm looking at is, as you said, rated at 1,000 bridged.  The Behringer unit you recommended is rated at 3,000.  Fizik recommended the Dayton (mono) unit at slightly under 1,000.  You really don't think that the Behringer would be overkill?

I have never measured amps, but from what I've read the Inuke might be the King of overstated power ratings.  According to others there is no way an Inuke 3000 has 3000 watts.  In the PE description I think the power is described in much more reasonable figures.

 

The Inuke's are the defacto standard by posters on AVS.com in the DIY Speakers and Subs section because they are cheap, reliable and there is a lot of support from people using them.  They also have Digital Signal Processing built into the DSP models, but if you don't do measurements the DSP is not as effective. 

 

The two drawbacks for most consumers are the pro-style Neutrek type connectors.  Even though they are considered superior, they are not as common as RCA plugs. 

 

The other drawback is the loud fan noise which everybody complains about.  The fan problem is easily dealt with by swapping out to quieter fans, but a lot of people don't want to have to do that.

 

I have an Inuke 3000 w/DSP.  I have not worked with it that much yet, but I do own it and plan to do a 15" sub project.

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5 hours ago, wvu80 said:

two drawbacks for most consumers are the pro-style Neutrek type connectors.  Even though they are considered superior, they are not as common as RCA plugs. 

 

I have no idea what this means.  RCA is a low level connection and Neutrik is a high level connection.   Maybe you're thinking of XLR and RCA?

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5 hours ago, wvu80 said:

I have never measured amps, but from what I've read the Inuke might be the King of overstated power ratings.  According to others there is no way an Inuke 3000 has 3000 watts.  In the PE description I think the power is described in much more reasonable figures.

 

The Inuke's are the defacto standard by posters on AVS.com in the DIY Speakers and Subs section because they are cheap, reliable and there is a lot of support from people using them.  They also have Digital Signal Processing built into the DSP models, but if you don't do measurements the DSP is not as effective. 

 

The two drawbacks for most consumers are the pro-style Neutrek type connectors.  Even though they are considered superior, they are not as common as RCA plugs. 

 

The other drawback is the loud fan noise which everybody complains about.  The fan problem is easily dealt with by swapping out to quieter fans, but a lot of people don't want to have to do that.

 

I have an Inuke 3000 w/DSP.  I have not worked with it that much yet, but I do own it and plan to do a 15" sub project.

 

Yes, a friend of mine uses the inuke 3000 w/ DSP for his SI 18" sub and while it seems to power it just fine it does not hold a candle to my Samson SX2800 amplifier bridged which is 1800 watts RMS, it actually seemed much closer to the output of a single channel of that amp at 600 watts.

 

 

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I'm going to throw a small wrench into this assembly here and make you stop and think for a minute --

 

I have spent hours - lots of hours - looking at the options, modelling them in the kit boxes.

The bottom line is this -- no matter what you may think -- buying the UMAX15 over the UMAX12 makes all the sense in the world.

 

Without checking the specs, which I think I almost know by heart, the output will be roughly 4db higher at 20hz.

The size of the box dimensions only changes significantly from 16 to 20 on one side.

The cost difference is around $30.  That's it.  Even if mostly for music, the 12 imo is a lesser deal just by the costs PE is offering.  

 

The performance difference is huge, it takes almost 2 of the 12s to match the 15s output.  

With a sealed alignment, the lowest end is affected here a lot.  But when it comes to EQ and headroom, you've got A LOT more with the UMax.  

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6 minutes ago, RoboKlipsch said:

The performance difference is huge, it takes almost 2 of the 12s to match the 15s output.  

Odd because two 12's will normally better a 15 if all else is equal (xmax).  Two 12's have a cone area of about 226 sq in and one 15 is about 176.  You are correct, for the price difference the 15 is a no brainer.

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9 minutes ago, CECAA850 said:

Odd because two 12's will normally better a 15 if all else is equal (xmax).  Two 12's have a cone area of about 226 sq in and one 15 is about 176.  You are correct, for the price difference the 15 is a no brainer.

In the model I just ran, it shows the 15 to be almost identical to 2 -12s.  Within a db of each other across the spectrum.

That's what caught my eye when I was modelling them.

I think it was 4 10s to match the 15!  

 

If I remember correctly, last I checked the 12s were out of stock until May.  

 

With the need for EQ in a sealed alignment, the extra excursion of the Umaxes is handy. 

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9 hours ago, ACV92 said:

Fizik - I'll be heading to Boise in a couple of weeks.  Are you up for a demo?  I usually stay in Nampa.  If not, that's fine.  The Dayton unit you recommended does look like it would be a little less involved than a DSP.  Unless I'm looking at this incorrectly.  I'll have to do some more research. 

 

I'll Pm you about a demo.

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4 hours ago, CECAA850 said:

I have no idea what this means.  RCA is a low level connection and Neutrik is a high level connection.   Maybe you're thinking of XLR and RCA?

I was thinking in terms of consumer electronics.  I can go down to Walmart and pick up an RCA cable but not a Neutrik.  The Neutriks have a very solid connection and the people who use them love them so that's why I consider it "superior" to the RCA.  Here is the back of an Inuke.

 

BENU46000-6.jpg

 

I know I can make my own cables and Neutriks cables are easily available from Monoprice but many consumers don't want the hassle and don't have the technical knowledge to deal with pro audio gear.

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53 minutes ago, RoboKlipsch said:

The bottom line is this -- no matter what you may think -- buying the UMAX15 over the UMAX12 makes all the sense in the world.

 

Without checking the specs, which I think I almost know by heart, the output will be roughly 4db higher at 20hz.

The size of the box dimensions only changes significantly from 16 to 20 on one side.

The cost difference is around $30.  That's it.  Even if mostly for music, the 12 imo is a lesser deal just by the costs PE is offering.  

 

The performance difference is huge, it takes almost 2 of the 12s to match the 15s output.  

With a sealed alignment, the lowest end is affected here a lot.  But when it comes to EQ and headroom, you've got A LOT more with the UMax.  

I knew this was going to happen. 

 

Anytime somebody posts and says "help me find the best X" a lot of us will immediately think "if he could spend another 50 bucks he could have "Y" which is twice what "X" is.

 

I tried to help Mr. ACV92 find the best amp and 12" sub combo, I really did.

 

But the bottom line is Mr. RoboKlipsch is correct, the 15" is not a lot larger than the 12, and it has vastly superior capability for just a few more dollars which is insignificant compared to the years-long life of the sub. 

 

Your wife won't notice the difference in size, but you will notice the difference in sub power and performance, so I'm with Roboklipsch; go for the 15.  B)

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